I’d like to say that the decision on restricting access to Plan B has led to a backlash in Washington. I’d like to say that female and male legislators alike lambasted the decision, which will result in more unwanted pregnancies and more abortions because paternalistic policymakers didn’t want to feel icky. But the headline “Plan B decision draws strong and mixed reaction” doesn’t really connote mass outrage. Some women’s groups have condemned the decision, yes – Planned Parenthood wants to meet with Sebelius – but the reaction has been more muted than deserved. And outside of Sen. Patty Murray, women’s advocates in Congress have given the Administration a pass:
Aides to pro-choice women in the Senate who are typically responsive were mostly silent throughout the day. The Huffington Post contacted 13 such offices and received only two responses, statements from Sens. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) and Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.). Two Democratic aides said Murray’s office was taking the lead on responding, and her office confirmed that the senator would be writing a letter asking the administration for more information on the decision.
Murray’s statement, at least, is a sternly worded condemnation of the decision, charging the administration with putting politics over science.
“I’m very disappointed that Secretary Sebelius has chosen to override the careful scientific analysis of the FDA by blocking further access to emergency contraception,” she said. “In this case, both the FDA and the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research did careful analysis and determined that Plan B is safe and effective for over-the-counter use by more women. That analysis included a thorough review of whether young women understood usage restrictions.”
But that was the extent, more or less, of the push back from the Hill.
There’s a tactical decision being made here. The Administration has an additional policy in this arena, whether to offer a religious “conscience exemption” to roll back free contraception coverage, a feature of the Affordable Care Act, for Catholic hospitals and schools and other organizations. And some in Congress are simply holding fire until that decision comes down. Others, like Rep. Diana DeGette and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, took the Administration at their word when they claimed they will collect more data on the consequences of making Plan B available to all women over the counter. Of course, the FDA had studied this for 10 years, and recommended that OTC access to Plan B was safe for adolescent women, despite more testing than they ever performed with other potentially dangerous drugs like Tylenol.
There’s no question politics was involved in the decision, as it has been on Plan B for years, and there’s no question politics are involved in the reaction. But if you want to know why the Administration feels emboldened to rule conservatively on this issue affecting women’s health, rather than the more liberal rulings we’ve seen lately on LGBT issues, you need only look to the activist sphere and these reactions. If this Administration gets no pressure from the outside, they feel free to position themselves however they want. And the women’s advocacy community, both inside and outside Congress, have basically been doormats. Now we’re seeing the results.
Incidentally, as Celinda Lake says, the politics guiding the Administration on this are clearly wrong. I’ll give her the last word:
But Democratic pollster Celinda Lake said she could “not even remotely” understand the political calculus of the decision, saying it “alienates the base, causes conflict with women in the base, [is] bad for key groups of women like younger women and unmarried women, and doesn’t win the swing independent women.”




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I wish someone would come out and say what Papa Barry’s real problem with “Plan B” is. He does not want his girls to be able to have sex without telling him about it. It is a completely irrational misogynist control move. Do we really believe that teenage Barry never had sex? Do we really believe he ran home and told his Grandparents every time he seduced a girl? Come on Grandma, I bonked this girl last night and you need to go over and talk to her parents and get them to take her to the doctor and get a prescription for “Plan B”. This is what he is imagining for his daughters?
I personally grew up with a violent mother, who one time came at me swinging a hammer for some imagined infraction. I am positive she would have killed me before helping me, if I had ever admitted to having sex the night before.
These horrible politicians! There are girls who will leave home and get caught up in street life, rather than talk to their parents. Plan B is the best thing EVER for women! How many times have we found ourselves the next morning wondering how we let that happen? How many of the teenagers out there remember being manhandled into sex? Not quite rape…but not quite what they had in mind? Go to hell Barry!
Now there’s an oxymoron. With emphasis on the moron.
I definitely think it is much safer for an 11 year old to be pregnant than to take 2 pills. /s
We call ourselves a free country, but the government (particularly the Republicans) want to control how we have sex and decide whether we want kids or not.
I think Barry is the best Republican president we have had since Ronnie Raygun.
I disagree with the decision, but, if Lake “can’t even remotely understandthe political caculus of the decision,” she should be summarily fired.
Sadly Sen. Patty has become just another D.C. pod person.
No, O-Brother is a more successful Republican than Ronnie because he doesn’t have to contend with those pesky Democrats in Congress. I guess they’re all really concerned about re-electing Big Zero, so they’ll let him pander to the right as much as he wants? Sheesh.
Just more proof that its not merely that Obullshit is a fifth-column traitor who should imprisoned/beaten/raped, but that the whole party is dead. It’s getting harder and harder to remember what it was like to live in a liberal society, much less imagine what a leftist one is like.
Oh, and I was fundraising for PP back when Plan B was (FINALLY) approved; the data that it was safe and necessary had been available for years and we were all very upset that the Bush administration was forcing women to have unwanted pregnancies out of political calculation. Gee, I’m sure glad I worked in ’08 to elect a President who wouldn’t do that! The Most Liberal President 40 Years (™insiipid)! Not at all like Bush…Bush was much shorter!
I would say there are a goodly number of responsible parents among that reluctant to criticize majority. It is not as if Plan B is not now available over the counter to adults, and any enterprising child/”young woman” could manage access if they felt in need. But what part of overmedication do you proponents of access for all not understand? This would open up floodgates – not on the questions of morality, that is a separate discussion – but on the adviseability of telling children (children!) that this is like taking aspirin. It is not.
When did we suddenly fall over ourselves upholding the sagacity of the current FDA? They’ve made very lax decisions ON BEHALF OF THE MANUFACTURERS.
Don’t be hoodwinked. Sure, Obama had some skin in the game as they say, but we all do if we care at all for our youngsters and want them to be healthy. This, like the cervical cancer immunization, is a poison pill that Big Pharma was licking its chops over for a new revenue flow.
Wake up! Kids do not need this. We’ll be sending them off to war next.
This comment should be removed. It is way over the line.
The numbers of those waging the War Against Women have now been increased dramatically by inclusion of many of the Democratic Party’s women. We’re fast reaching the point where we will be unable to vote for anyone with a “D” after their name. Uni-Party straight ahead.
My comment referred to Vote Socialist’s comment.
I am sorry for the upbringing you describe, bittersweet. However, the point still stands. Plan B is not the answer to your situation – counseling and independence of thought would be, and it would not have hurt you to make lemonade out of your lemons and refrain from sexual encounters out of fear of parental disapproval – you would have been a healthier person in spite of your situation. It’s not impossible, and believe me it is better for kids if they are just allowed to be kids and not forced by society into dangerous intimacies before they are ready for them. We really have to work towards that because otherwise third world country here we come, pills or no pills. Children have to be allowed to be children. My point about sending them off to war is one I really mean. If you persist in turning kids into adults as soon as possible you rob them of necessary growing time and assist in perverse attitudes towards young people – really!
I know I will get pushback on this, but I grew up in a time when it was the rare kid who thought that he or she was adult enough to have sexual intimacy issues. They are never ready for this, physically or mentally. So, it ought to remain a taboo, just as a practical matter, and making this ‘plan’ available to them doesn’t benefit them and it doesn’t cure the problem of child pregnancies. It only pretends to by putting forward the message ‘they all do it.’ No, they don’t. I didn’t. Not because I was repressed; because I was allowed to be a child as long as I needed to be. Thank heaven for that.
Thank you for your lectures.
Come on people, the under-lying reason for this decision has nothing to do with politicians wanting to control us; it has to do with politicians fear of right-wing religious voters.
The politicians could care less what we do, they care almost exclusively about two things, the folks who
control themcontribute to their election campaigns, and the hysterical mob sometimes referred to as the ‘religious right’.Obama, just like every other politician of either party, is scared out of his wits about the possibility of incurring the wrath of either group.
The fat-cats provide the
bribescampaign contributions and the right-wing religious nut-jobs provide the votes.As long as un-limited, anonymous campaign contributions are legal, and the right-wing nitwits care exclusively about forcing others to comply with their idea of moral behavior, we’ll continue our slide, quite predictably into fascism.
History clearly demonstrates that all fascist regimes have been enabled by the deep-pockets of corporations on the one hand, and hysterical hicks on the other.
The Fat-Cats live in fear that somewhere there is a dollar that they can’t get their hands on, and the religious nut-jobs live in fear that somewhere, someone is having a good time.
Way over what line, old gold? I did not attack anyone personally, but I do feel strongly on this issue. Even though I for the most part object to Obama’s attitude towards the presidency, and strongly support the Occupy movement, I am a parent and grandparent, and where children’s health is concerned, less medication is better. Have there been studies on how young girls who are still maturing would react to this medication? I don’t think so. So it is not something you should cavalierly suggest as a response to every sexual encounter they may very likely have – an adult should be weighing the decision – a parent or a counselor who has access to the medication.
The issue is an important one because it does go to the idea that we have a pill for everything. We don’t. And I do think my suggestion about Big Pharma is on point. Is that the line you don’t like, oldgold?
You are absolutely right. We can hardly send our young men and women off to die in some third world hell whole if they are pregant or playing beer pong with Plan B pills instead of ping pong balls every Friday night and it makes them ill.
Who will be there to occupy foreign countries and pacify unfriendly locals so we can build new oil pipelines and extract mineral wealth so the rest of us can drive our SUV’s and play on our iPhones.
And at least if they get pregnant whether they want to be or not, then that will insure a fresh supply of flesh for the Endless War, Inc. And I hear business is bound to pick up since the US is now to be considered the battle field in the Endless War On Terror. We will need battalions of new soldiers to pacify the enemies here.
You know who I am talking about, anyone that too vocally disagree with the new Military Junta to take hold here at home. Hell we support them every fucking where else, we might as well have one here.
It will be a grand day when Field Marshall American Pie wipes his ass on the voluntarilly state run Fox News Channel with the original Consitution. Long live the Olicorptocracy!
Lucky you. And I hope you can remain in that bubble until you are ready to contemplate the reality outside.
Absolutely agree what “Women’s Rights Advocates in Congress” ?
All these so called groups that claim to represent some sector of our society,for instance progressive caucus ,women’s rights,black caucus etc these are just labels these creeps attach to themselves so as to get into congress & stay into congress without much examination by the groups they claim to represent.
Right Wing fringe religious voters who are seeking to control us via policticians. It is TOTALLY about control by the few over the many.
“creeps”
You got that right.
It’s not a lecture, eCAHNomics. I appreciate all you folk do on these forums, as I’ve often expressed. The issue is raised by David’s post, and he’s wondering why some people on the women’s rights movement are not in opposition to Obama’s decision. I am telling him why.
I do believe in a woman’s right to choose, but that is a WOMAN’s right to choose, and young girls are not adults. They don’t vote; they don’t go off to war; they should not bear children. They need our counsel in important matters about their budding sexuality, not to be thrust out into a sea of bad choices. I really do feel this.
One thing I did notice about education issues in this country is a lack of concern about keeping children children as long as they need to be. It is a fault of a liberally oriented society that kids do feel the pressures to grow up sooner than they should, and they really miss out on childhood in a lot of instances. This is where the modern world is tending, I know, but childhood is such a precious time.
I’ll give you an instance: middle school. When I grew up that tricky period was part of primary school. I strongly feel it should still be. Middle school gets kids into that noman’s land before they are ready for it – isolates them and points them too soon towards the big kids in high school. Had I the choice I would abolish it and go back to the old divisions.
So, these aren’t lectures, eCAHNomics, and no doubt in a General Assembly I would be shouted down. So be it. You can’t lecture to a group if they don’t want to hear. But you can throw out some ideas and hope that they, pardon the term, germinate.
And what about every centruty before the 20th when so-called ‘children’ were married by 14? Now we have a scads of sheltered XBox addicted boobs running around with barely the competence to make a ham sandwhich without adult supervision.
Let kids be kids, but when they fuck up, let them have the opportunity to redeem themselves. Learning is all about failure and fucking up. After the young women get ill after taking a pill to force a chemical miscarriage, I highly doubt they are going to be eager to do that again.
You sound like you expect they will be popping these things like chiclets! Read up on how physically bad a woman feels after taking this medication and you will rethink your rather ill considered position.
People always trying to restrict rights and liberties in this country in spieling ‘It’s for the childre’. I despise that notion. It’s the same thing that has us in the Neverending War On People Who Might Do Bad Things To Us. It’s horse pockey.
Thanks for clearing that up, oldgold. I sometimes find it impossible to get the pink reply connect also.
Perfect. Too bad more people haven’t figured that out.
When my son was young, and no school was suitable (we tried 5 entirely diff options) I did a lot of thinking about learning by making mistakes without the draconian penalties now imposed on mistakes.
Wow, are you actually taking the moral “high ground” and accusing me of being promiscuous? Do you think that I should have paid the price for my wantonness by getting pregnant? Was I a “bad” girl? Should my unwanted and un-prevented babies have been raised in poverty because they were born in sin? Are your daughters of high moral character? Will they stay virginal to please their mommie? Do you actually believe that your teenage daughters will not have over-eager boys pressure them into un-prepared sex? Do you realize that most young girls do not consider it rape unless they have been beat up?
I simply roll my eyes at you, and dismiss you from my world!
Young girls are not women, Sinestar. They shouldn’t be forced into marriage at 14 and these pills should not be available to them for the reasons you state, except under adult supervision. We don’t let them vote and that’s far less problematic personally than the ‘freedom’ to purchase this medication.
And by the way, you have a bit of a mixed message. A comment earlier stated that pregnancy was far better than taking this medication. It was meant as a snark, but I think the jury is still out on that one. Personal point, my own grandmother had this very experience. She was a most remarkable, wonderful woman, no doubt changed from having this happen to her at an early age. It should not have happened, but some of that change deepened her character I am sure. So, as I say, the jury is still out. Would she have been such an interesting, unique personality had PlanB been readily available? I learned so much from her, it’s not as black and white as folk are making it out to be. That’s all I am trying to say here.
Lay off the violent rhetoric please !
No man or woman deserves rape no matter how vile.
Kids evolve faster now-a-days no.
Enabled by spineless Democrats, “progressive pundits,” and sell-out, cocktail party advocacy groups (let’s all support Gurney Joe’s shitting on the Democratic Party) who urge us to compromise on, e.g. the Stup(ak)id restrictions in ACA (“new protections prohibit discrimination against health care facilities and health care providers because of an unwillingness to provide, pay for, provide coverage of, or refer for abortions.”
In the war of attrition on women’s (including girls’) health care rights, which we are losing, the Plan B decision was a beacon of hope. Now extinguished along with all that other hopey changey stuff.
So much for the new, improved Obama. Sorry, Bob Reich.
Totally silly, bittersweet. Read my post again, and dismiss away. I was not attacking you personally. I have no idea what your situation was except for the brutality you mentioned, which I sympathized with.
tribalism trumps advocacy, what an effing shock !
it’s a tight race, but could there be a more useless critter than DeGette ?!?
Obama’s “liberal” LGBT policies??? You’re joking right?
He has fought us every step of the way up to and including having Judge Phillips ruling vacated. Why do you think Get Equal was born?
Unlike the woman’s movement, gay people and environmentalists are done giving Obama a free pass.
are you kidding me ?!?!
Michele Bachmann called, she wants her talking points back !
Nearly 50 years ago, when I was a child of 12, I had a girl in my class confess to me that she’d had sex with her boyfriend.
One of my childhood friends got pregnant when she was 13, two of my high school friends at 14 and 15. My baby sitter when she was 16.
The solutions then? Send them away for a year in secret, or even in the case of the 14 year old: marriage.
Child marriage, child pregnancies in middle class white “family values” communities: my high school friends were “A” students, religious. One of my aunt’s “had to get married” in the 1940s.
Teenagers (and some children) have sex — they always have — and you know what’s ten thousand times more dangerous than Plan B? Children pregnant.
So rant on Juliana, you’re doing nothing to actually protect children, and neither is the president.
What bubble? Aren’t the Occupy folk trying to raise issues which aren’t being discussed in the general media? This is one of them. We want a world that will be good for our kids to grow up in, and their kids. I am saying we can change society’s perceptions in ways we don’t always think workable but should.
My daughters do make their own decisions as adults, and they did make scary decisions as kids; kids do. I’ve had enough kids to be able to see that worse situations arise for children as society degenerates – the older ones had happier times surrounding them, safer times, as I did, though there are always dangers. You can’t protect against everything, but that is the parental instinct, to protect. And I think we should be thinking about that. Not just going along with a mindless freedom which as I think of it, only benefits the pharmaceutical companies.
I haven’t always been successful and you’re right, I have very oldfashioned ideas on this subject. But that doesn’t make them bad ideas. I’m not judging kids who get into sexual behavior too early – I’m trying to change the climate so it’s easier not to have that happen. Peer pressure is really hard for unformed minds to resist. I understand that. In the same way, we don’t have justice in our legal system at this time; that doesn’t make the system right, and we try to change that, bring in the ideas that aren’t being discussed but should be. That’s my only goal here. And I think, looking hard at medicating our young people as a solution to natural tendencies – well, we shouldn’t just condemn those who are reluctant to do so. They do have arguments to make.
Well said.
Risks of teen pregnancy.
1. High blood pressure, which can also affect the fetus.
2. Premature birth
3. Low birth weight babies
4. STDs
5. Postpartum depression
No it’s not. You know from my posts that I am liberal to the core, don’t like Obama and will never vote for him again, and support absolutely the brave Occupiers around the country and the world. I believe we have only a oneparty system at present, the oligarchs and I am looking for very necessary help for our environment yesterday.
So, I am not a rightwinger in any sense of the word. I do see profit for the drug manufacturers being skilfully manipulated into a ‘freedom of choice’ issue unnecessarily expanded to extend strong medication towards a vulnerable market we should be protecting. It’s just the kids issue that is motivating me here. Unless anyone has an issue with that, I’ll shut up now. Hope I have made my point, and apologies for any unintended discomfort.
I’m not ranting, judy, and neither are you. I’m expressing a different opinion. Badly, I am sure, but there’s no reason to take offence.
You could advance discussion by contributing facts, like a link to your assertion that Plan B’s influence on girls has not been studied, and if it has, why it is worse than the medical risks of pregnancy that I linked to in 36.
and doncha love the height of irony – Obama swaggering about appeasement on this of all days yesterday
Indeed. It’s getting totally out of control. The penalties for errors in judgement are ridiculous… many of them amped up why? TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN! Or, in the case of PA to put them in private detention centers for profit.
Maybe they will make it against the law to get pregnant before you are 18. Now that would be progressive. We can force them into re-education camps and make them give up their kids to nunneries like they did in the UK as late as 1994 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magdalene_Sisters
That hell holes sounds like a much more wholesome environment than allowing ‘children’ to experiment with sex, like IS PERFECTLY NORMAL TO DO, if you ask about any psychologist.
This bubble:
“…I grew up in a time when it was the rare kid who thought that he or she was adult enough to have sexual intimacy issues. They are never ready for this, physically or mentally. So, it ought to remain a taboo…, ‘they all do it.’ No, they don’t. I didn’t. Not because I was repressed; because I was allowed to be a child as long as I needed to be. Thank heaven for that.”
Again: Good on ya, your parents, and hopefully your children. This isn’t about you, or Melia and Sasha.
This is about public policy. Your comments demonstrate you have no clue about the realities of teen sexuality for millions of kids.
Good point about kidz prisons. Mine is now 30 so things like that, even though I know about them, are not at the forefront of my brain.
Let us be clear about the argument being put forth here. My protagonist is putting forth the notion that “young girls are not adults…(snip)They need our counsel in important matters about their budding sexuality, not to be thrust out into a sea of bad choices.”
To simplify: Girls should not have sex, therefore they do not need Plan B.
Great.
Every girl has a gracious mommy who is gentle, empathetic and willing and able to get her to that $200 doctor’s appointment within 72 hours of the always consensual sex. (While giving her a good talking to?)
Great. Problem solved. Let’s move on. s/
So … being pro-choice now means that you think the guy in the White House should make decisions about potential pregnancy rather than a woman and her family? Thanks for the update from the Democratic Party Central Committee. There’s probably a reason nobody’s reading those messages any more.
You make excellent points, eCAHNomics, that child pregnancy is not preferable to the alternative, which is a healthy, happy childhood. What is not clear to me (and I am not Michelle Bachmann) is that PlanB is all it is assumed to be on this forum. I have not advocated that it not be available to mature women who can make good choices. These are strong medications as even my opponents here admit.
I am raising the question (see my admission on #25) as to whether once a young girl has made a sexual intimacy choice it is better for her physically and mentally to use PlanB, and I still say the jury is out. I really think this medication may be worse than the issues you raise, and so far nobody has proven to me it is not. A young forming body may have reactions to a medication which doesn’t affect an adult; I think that’s a reasonable supposition. There will be information down the line to prove this one way or another, because young girls are going to avail themselves of the medication through having adults purchase it for them. When they do, the answers will be there. I am saying, wait till you know it is safe.
Thank goodness, you finally have realized how simple this all is. Bet you feel so much better now, huh?
Humans are alpha male animals. If the guy in charge doesn’t tell us what to do, we’ll all be lost. /s
Fallacious setup.
Plan B comes in AFTER unprotected sex. So all those other nice things you think are better are irrelevant when it’s time for Plan B. At that time, there are 3 choices: pregnancy roulette, actual pregnancy, or Plan B.
Hi Straw Man, meet fire…
Plan B has been a drug approved for use across Europe for at least 20 years.
Here we are still debating the issue! It’s the religious right fuck tards that having blocking the issue since the 1990′s. They want control over sexuality. They are the ones telling us all what we must do.
Take the wool off your eyes man!
These are not moral but practical issues. Nobody is judging anyone, least of all me who am the most guilty of making mistakes much worse than child sexual ones. Those are very minor in my book, and natural to boot. My grandmother, as I said, was taken advantage of in her youth and endured the hardships that came with that circumstance. She emerged a remarkable character.
Again, apologies. We relate to our own experiences here, and that is as it should be.
Right, let’s make more statements based on how we ‘feel’ instead of supporting it with any facts. Are you a recently converted liberal? I ask because you debate a point like a Right Winger.
Has anyone one on this blog ever taken Plan B? I have. “Plan B® One-Step is composed of a progestin-only (levonorgestrel) tablet. Levonorgestrel is well-trusted and has been commonly used in many birth control pills for over 35 years. In a clinical trial, women tolerated Plan B® One-Step well; 14% experienced nausea and 1% experienced vomiting.” http://www.planbonestep.com/plan-b-pharmacists/plan-b-side-effects.aspx
My reaction: nothing. Nada. I went out and rode my bike 50 miles. I had my period on the same day I had expected it my whole life.
This is really not a health issue. It is a control issue!
This is a control of girls issue.
Just bc your grandmother is a remarkable woman means that every female must be a remarkable woman.
Yes, I long to live in a society where every person is above average. Esp teachers. The whole edumacation mess would be solved if every teacher were an above average teacher. Way way above average would be better still.
With respect, Plan B wouldn’t prevent STDs.
Yes, eCAHNomics. But you are not able to prove to me that PlanB is better than the alternatives presently available, because you are not telling me what the results of taking the medication will be for young girls. You say there are serious problems, and I agree, with teen pregnancies. What are the problems (and there are always side effects) with this medication for still developing young girls? I still say the jury is out on that one.
The diff bet Rs & Ds on this issue is that Rs want to control girls one way and Ds want to control them another way.
Almost left that one out. Except that it’s STDs in the context of being PREGNANT, if you didn’t read the comment. STDs while pregnant is are mite more dangerous than STDs while not pregnant, neither being good, of course.
Thank you.
“I really think this medication may be worse than the issues you raise, and so far nobody has proven to me it is not.”
The FDA did. Obama is violating his own executive order on scientific integrity (“Political officials should not suppress or alter scientific or technological findings and conclusions”):
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/memorandum-heads-executive-departments-and-agencies-3-9-09
You’re the one who is saying that Plan B has not been tested enough. It’s been at use in Europe for 20 years, so why don’t you google around and provide a link for your assertion. Don’t expect someone else to do your work for you.
I guess I need to take issue with this. Juliana has offered her point of view on the pros and cons of making Plan B available to young women under age 17.
I fail to understand the underlying current of nastiness directed at Juliana for expressing a point of view in a civil and careful way.
Can’t we have a rational discussion of an issue without casting aspersions at each other and subtle (not overt) name calling?
I’ve always been a liberal, am very liberal with respect to raising my own family in the ’60s (Yay RFK and McCarthy! – Gene, that is.) Never did drugs, and yes, there were a lot of us who didn’t. But I guess that disqualifies me from hippiedom though I was of that generation and all the save the world sympathies – think Joan Baez on my attitude there, loved her. Not perfect, didn’t actively protest when I should have and still hang back from putting my life on the line. That’s a serious defect, I know, bit of a coward there. Plenty of things I’ve done wrong as my family will attest. And as I’ve said above, not judging just wishing health to young bodies facing the slings and arrows.
Nobody has actually proven that smoking causes lung cancer. And the jury is still out on global warming and its causes, right.
I’m not sure I agree with you (especially not on the cervical cancer immunization–Gardasil and Cervarix–which I think is very important), but I will defend your calm and rational comments. Thank you for not taking the “bait” being offered.
What is fallacious about waiting to have results on a medication which may be harmful to young people? I am not saying take the medication off the shelves, just restrict it until you know for sure that it is better than the alternatives.
‘Nuf said. I can’t be more clear than that.
Still avoiding the issue of using, um, ya know, facts rather than opinion. Your opinion are not in doubt. Your facts are.
Heartfelt thanks, msmolly. I’ll quit now. A few tears, but you’ve helped, and warm wishes to all. I just remember thalidomide, and we had a better FDA then, not one that’s been co-opted by Big Pharma. Please take that into account, plus the fact that Obama as a parent may make better decisions than he does as president.
Are you joking or is this a serious comment?!!
>>>What is fallacious about waiting to have results on a medication which may be harmful to young people? I am not saying take the medication off the shelves, just restrict it until you know for sure that it is better than the alternatives.<<<
They have been studying it for both physical AND mental safety/appropriateness for over 10 YEARS!!!! for the EXPRESS reason to decide if it should be sold without a prescription to potentially anymore who wants it. The scientific evidence came back that yes it is. The political will was/is lacking in the administration, and it remains behind the counter for adults only that requires a paid prescription.
Anyone who thinks that the 'possible' side effects of this pill are the same or potential worse than pregnancy is either woefully uninformed (hopefully not just really stupid), or moralistically wants to control what other people do, or both. Or more cynically,, the admin wants to make sure the medical/industrial/pharma lobby keeps the prescription requirement, since that means the price is higher to get it.
It’s possible that Plan B medication may not be entirely safe for an 11 or 12 year old–even a 14 or 15 year old–but it’s a whole lot safer than a coathanger or strange herbal concoctions.
I also notice that most of the comments here address consensual sex among young teens and pre-teens, but what if the issue is incest? Is a 12-year old supposed to approach her mother for help when the problem may be a step-father? Most abused children are terrified to tell anyone that they are being abused and often try to “tough it out” until they’re old enough to leave home. At least access to Plan B would give them some peace of mind over the physical aspects of a horrible situation.
The whole issue of teen sex is much more complex than anything discussed on this thread. Which is why I generally favor all available options, and am aware of no overwhelming evidence that Plan B is a serious medical risk for teens.
I had to make a med or no med decision for my ADD son in the late 80s. Believe it or not, although ritalin had been in use for over 50 years by then (or so I recall what I used to know about it), no one had done any long terms studies. The dilemma was: fail at school or take ritalin with potential long term adverse effects. It’s called decision making under uncertainty.
Why don’t you provide links to some of those studies, and stop implying that people with a different PoV are stupid if they disagree with you.
I suppose nobody should care, but I am really offended by the tone of this discussion. So I think I’ll just go back to cleaning my house and leave you all to your spitball tossing Friday afternoon fun.
Huh?
Juliana would prevent girls for taking a safe effective pregnancy prevention medication in the case of emergency, when unprotected sex was unplanned for. And her excuse is that she wants the right to control her daughter’s sexual emergence, and she does not want to bother to read the research on Levonorgestrel.
Now we should feel sorry for her, and her few tears? No tears for the young, scared pregnant girls. No tears for the unwanted, impoverished babies.
How many uneducated, controlling parents are reading this today and agreeing with her?
We must educate in the face of with wanton ignorance! People that do not read the research first, and speak without empathy destroy us. They go out and cast uninformed votes.
Obama can make all decisions about his children, subject to Michelle’s approval. For decisions about mine, I’d prefer he’d follow the science, as he pledged to do.
This politically motivated public policy decision will affect millions of children whose lives are very different from yours and your children’s.
Bittersweet: “Levonorgestrel is well-trusted and has been commonly used in many birth control pills for over 35 years. In a clinical trial, women tolerated Plan B® One-Step well; 14% experienced nausea and 1% experienced vomiting.”
“This is really not a health issue. It is a control issue!
This is a control of girls issue.” WORD!
In response to OldGold:
I believe Lake’s point was that she understood what Obama was thinking — punch the hippies, win independent voters! — but that he was wrong to think that was a winning formula.
More abortions, more shattered families — what’s not to love?
Bingo.
O once again found the sweet spot guaranteed to piss off all sides to the max degree.
Yes, thanks for raising the issue of abortion. I forgot to put it in my choices in a much earlier comment. Is an abortion medically safer for a mid-teen girl than Plan B? Hmmmmm. Let me not think about that for even a second.
Short walk to the pharmacy counter at Target.
Long walk to the abortion clinic, past picketers or worse, over the state line in some states.
Hmmm indeed.
Over medcaton? These meds. don’t get you high, they merely prevent a pregnancy before it really becomes a pregnancy. This isn’t ritelin. This is a pregnancy prevention pill, not something you give kids to keep them quiet.
All things considered, I disagree with this decision.
Clearly, it was a decision where politics trumped science and doing the right thing. That said, where I disagreee with Lake is that viewed solely through a cynical political lens, it makes some sense.
True, it won’t win Obama a single vote, but it won’t cost him the election.
Only the dead will not confront slings and arrows.
Maybe you are too old to have had an interest, but do you remember the first Nightmare on Elm Street movie (the only one of them with a real plot)?
What do you think the lesson was there? What was Freddy a personification of?
Think about it, and then say ‘Ohhhh” out loud.
The only time kids would be taking these pills is when they think they may be pregnant. It isn’t as though these kids are going to go out and take some to get high. They have a good reason for taking them. Geeeesh
There is a wonderful new machine called the google. You can put in questions and get answers. Oh well, I guess Concern Troll is concerned.
Another aspect: It’s fine for juliania to raise her daughters the way she sees fit, but what right does she or Sibelius or O have to make the decision for my daughter (if I had one).
Which is why teen girls need to be able to access all the necessary means to achieve birth control. Whether their parents want it or no.
-stewartm
Reminds me of a friend’s parents. Violently, religiously, politically anti- abortion. They are killing babies! Then her cousin got pregnant and was rushed off to the abortion clinic! They said, “Oh, it is different in her case”.
Yeah well, go ahead and cast the first stone, Christians.
I’m 67. Could I get Plan B if I went to the pharmacy? If so, for a small fee, I’d hire myself out to any pre-17ers to pick it up for her.
Or must one prove that she is older than 17, but younger than menopause.
Can males pick up Plan B?
Let’s have some facts instead of opinions.
Uh, what alternatives?
-stewartm
No one could prove that to her. I documented the dangers of pregnancy, forgot about abortion, which may or may not be more physically dangerous than pregnancy, but is sure to be an emotional experience, and j steadfastly refused to find research on Plan B’s safety. She wanted other people to do all the work for her.
Or rather, she had her opinion and NO amount of factual info was going to dissuade her, which is what she meant by ‘prove.’
Here you go:
“On August 24, 2006, Plan B was approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for nonprescription sale to women and men 18 and older in the United States.
What if other people – parents, siblings, or friends – buy Plan B to give to women under the age of 18? Dr. Galson said that the FDA is not in the business of regulating the practice of medicine or individual people’s behavior as regards drug use. There are no restrictions against a person 18 or older buying Plan B in advance to have on hand for future use. There are no restrictions against a person 18 or older buying multiple packages of Plan B at one time. Opponents of the age restriction have noted that it will be much easier for young women to get an older friend or relative to buy Plan B for them than to get a doctor’s prescription (and cheaper, too).
Can men buy Plan B? Yes – if they 18 or older. Men under the age of 18 will not be able to buy Plan B either with or without a prescription. See the FDA’s Q&A about Plan B [question 7b].”
http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/what-fda-says.html#4
National Women’s Law Center has a petition you can sign and send to Sibelius about her decision on Plan B. (Other orgs probably have one, too, though I’ve only seen this one.) Just wait until you get her response–”clueless’ comes to mind.
Maybe I don’t get it (nor really the genre, really) but I always thought that all such films of this genre are actually deeply Christian in outlook and feed off those moral sensibilities. They all involve gruesomely punishing young people for doing something that society doesn’t think they should be doing (having sex, smoking pot, etc.).
In that way, Freddy is then acting as God’s avenger. That, and the fact that our culture worships power for its own sake (even when applied for evil) also explains why the villain of such films develops a fan following. I really think that a lot of the fans of this genre actually identity with and sympathize with the villain and not the victims.
If you’re like me and don’t have such Christian sensibilities and don’t think that teens should be punished for doing things like having sex, then watching films of this genre is extremely painful. That’s because you identify with the film’s victims and not the Freddies, and you have to wait until the end when the villain gets his (probably temporary until the next film) comeuppance.
-stewartm, that’s my take.
Thanks bittersweet. That looks less onerous than I would have thought. If I were the mother of a teen, I’d buy it for her in advance. If I were a teen, without an enlightened mother, I’d have some one else buy it for me in advance.
However, as everyone isn’t me, and (I’m guessing) that the vast majority of first sexual encounters are not only unplanned but unexpected (life just happens), that will still not provide the backstop that many girls will need.
Thanks for finding that fatster. I signed. Also sent Sib a personal piece of my mind earlier (poor excuse for a human being, last time I’ll ever vote D were phrases I think I included).
Mods: Could you include fatster’s link to the petition in an update to the post, with dday’s permission, of course. Thanks.
I should have linked to the above earlier, but it did not occur to me that I was the only one opining here that had actually purchased Plan B.
I woke up worried Saturday morning. Years before I had accompanied a college friend while she went through 8 hours of mandatory “counseling” at the the University health clinic before finally being given the Plan B pill. I assumed the same still held, and I had no access to a physician at the time. I worried all weekend, then finally did some internet research. Unbeknownst to me, the law had changed. It said I could purchase it for $25 at any pharmacy! Although the guidelines stated that it should be taken within 72 hours, the article also said it was up to 60% effective for up to a week! I sat and cried with relief.
Then I walked into Target with my head up, showed my I.D., gave them $25, and walked out with my salvation. I was in my 40′s. I was scared.
I actually find the attitude that parents have the “right” to “raise their children as they see fit” objectionable too.
Repeat after me: young human beings are not animate property to be disposed of per the whims of their elder guardians. They are people. Accidents of biology are not justification for some elders to play Joe Stalin over them. If they need something, in particularly a medicine, they should have the right to get it themselves.
Moreover, as all would-be tyrants try to assume the mantle of “Great Daddy” over their population, the cause of self-government will always be at risk as long as our culture worships the idea of the benevolent parental dictator and such appeals “for the good of my children” carry influence.
It’s hard for people in European cultures (where children are seen and not heard and are at risk of physical beatings on whim) but some cultures don’t play by those rules. In Native American cultures, even the opinions of young children could carry weight and deserve respect.
-stewartm
Imagine being in your teens and being scared. You at least had some life experience to bolster your confidence to do something difficult.
One of the reasons I got attached to FDL years ago was the ethic of commenters providing links. That has diminished, though some (like now present fatster, and SD to name two outstanding members of the community) go above & beyond the call.
But there are many who refuse to understand that discussions should be reality based.
This is a subject I’m interested in only bc it’s related to feminism and there are so few of those on FDL. I don’t know anyone in the category of excluded from Plan B personally. So I’m not up on the science or links. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
I thought of your very point as I was typing that. But let it go in economy of language.
One of the most surprising things I learned soon after becoming a mother is how much little humans have personalities of their own, right from infancy.
The best (short version here) advice on parenting I’ve heard is patterning as one’s best shot.
But they’ll turn out their own way, no matter what.
One of the most obtuse comments I’ve read on here.
Forced by society? Are you aware that in the meters-long timeline of human existence, the idea that there is any reason at all for someone to wait some arbitrary number of years after sexual maturity to actually have sex falls in the last few inches? This is from someone who didn’t have sex until age 18 and has never had sex with anyone but their spouse. What you’re advocating is unrealistic. We might as well hustle everyone off to nunneries.
Heh. Just got an auto-reply from Sibelius, filled with a lot of propaganda about HHS, which I deleted without reading.
That too, LOL.
As the thread was about Plan B, I (and others it seemed) decided not to take it in that direction. One commenter did go there a bit in terms of how common it was for 14 year old girls to marry, but that was too complicated a concept for j to react to.
On edit: A biological reason for that was bc life expectancy was so short, infant mortality so high, females had to start child bearing young for human survival. Well, we’ve conquered those now, so we have some luxury to do it differently, but that need not lull us into thinking that once puberty hits, sexual activity won’t be far behind.
LOL. It is an amazing response, isn’t it? Just ignore the issue and bedazzle them with crap.
Exactly!
I want my young niece to be able to deal with her problems with dignity in a timely manner! If she chooses to tell my sister about it, that is up to her.
I actually trust my young niece. She is brilliant, conscientious and well read. She has a strong sense of herself and social justice. I would wish her to have the help and support of her parents. But I would cringe at the thought of her bearing the weight of deciding whether to extinguish an actual pregnancy, when she could have simply prevented implantation.
I have today concluded that President Obama is NOT a great daddy. I wish his daughters the best in dealing with him during their adolescence.
My message to her had to be limited to 50 words (original rejected one was 56; you’ll notice I don’t have a problem being short-winded), but hers to me could be as long as she wanted it.
Of course, she would have made more points by being shorter.
Mark Twain: I apologize for writing you a long letter. I didn’t have time to write you a short one.
The links to content are precisely why I spend my time at Fire Dog Lake. I did not realize people were unfamiliar with the subject they were writing about above, or I would have linked earlier. (Sigh).
The trouble is, I can imagine what it feels like to be young and scared. Sadly, Ms Sibelius, can not.
While this thread was going on, I had an email exchange with my Houston friend who’s a big supporter of Plnd Parenthd. They just had their holiday party, completely with metal detectors, big demonstrations outside, police present, etc.
I passed on the sentence at the end of the post about women being doormats. It took 2-3 back & forths until I got the point across. PP doesn’t want to take a strong stand on Plan B restrictions bc it is the election season and they don’t want it to be high profile. Geez, said I to my friend, that’s exactly why women will continue to be doormats. Election season is precisely the moment when you want to make a huge stink about issues like this. She finally typed back that she agreed with me, but you can see how deeply PP has been cowed by the right (soon to go the way of ACORN I opined), and put in the veal pen by O. Disgusting.
Put simply: How many young women will become pregnant just because democrats want to keep the right leaning presidency for another 4 years?
You are so right. So right.
So, isn’t that what I said?
The pols don’t care, but they’re catering to the idiots who do.
Yes, but why? There isn’t even any tradeoff, i.e. there’s nothing PP can get by being cooperative. Sigh.
The ignoring of that simple, obvious, fact of human sexual biology I find frustrating. The idea that nature fills teens full of hormones saying loudly “do it do it do it!!” and we act surprised when teens do it (or try to)? Worse, we act as if there were something *wrong* with them if they try?
And in fact, as our bonobo cousins show, there’s not even anything that special about puberty. Both we and they have so completely decoupled sex from reproduction that per-pubescent children of both species will “do it” or attempt to “do it” in some form or fashion if given the chance. In both species sex is at least as (if not more) important for its social purpose than its reproductive purpose.
I have a lot of disagreement with rightwingers on sex, but at least deep-down I get the feeling that a lot of rightwingers fear that yeah, their children are sexual beings and they had better scare the bejeebers out of them (with lies or mistruths perhaps) to prevent them from doing it. That’s also why they also teach kids that sex is naughty and immoral (in some way or fashion).
With an element of the left, however, it’s different. A lot of them have convinced themselves that it’s not natural for kids to want to have sex. They believe this even though they also want to be enlightened and tell kids that sex can be a wonderful, fulfilling, experience; that they can tell them all this and that kids will of course not want to try this wonderful fulfilling experience themselves to see what it’s like. It’s like telling them “don’t taste this scrupulously delicious chocolate cake, it’s not for you” and not expecting them not to want to sneak a bite. *Weird*.
What is going on here is mostly culture, not nature. While there are issues with very young girls having babies, what’s mostly going on is that the demands of a highly technological culture that requires higher educational attainment means that it’s better that people put off childbearing until they achieve the necessary education and economic independence required to raise babies. This is especially true given the higher cost associated with raising children.
That means–coming to both policy perspective and a personal one–to hold off having babies until one can support them. Also, from both perspectives, it’s important to do what we can to restrain the spread of STDs. Attaining both those objectives are indeed worthy goals.
But preventing youthful orgasms per se, whether solo or not? At most it pales into insignificance. Certainly as a policy objective. I don’t see it as any “moral” issue either.
That is why it’s far more important to give teen girls (and boys) the ability to prevent unwanted pregnancy and to prevent disease, because those are the only things that really matter.
-stewartm
I wouldn’t rule out that O does care. O is very much about control. On issues involving control he cedes very little (crumbs) to what used to be thought of as teh D base. Notice how painful a look he gets on his face when he throws out a crumb.
Which is not to say he isn’t also catering to the idiots who do.
Loved your essay. Chuckled all the way thru. Esp liked the way you describe the hypocrisy on the left
Between Tgiving & Xmas, when it gets dark early, the cocktail hour starts a little sooner that otherwise. Bartender will be making martinis. Any takers?
Thanks. I like your description of this as a control issue. And this might tell us that O is a controlling person in private.
As for the issue of the “right” of parents to control their progeny:
a) how many progressives think that it’s the “right” of fundie parents to send their gay offspring to some mind-fscking Christian therapist to cure them of teh gay??
b) how many progressives think that it’s the “right” of parents to indoctrinate their kids in oh, Rev. Phelps’ form of religious education? To indoctrinate them with hatred of another group of people of different race/religion/sexual orientation/whatever?
Progressives should think these things through before echoing points which are more properly rightwing, associated with the tradition of children as being the mere animate property of parents.
My perspective of this has led me to the conclusion that private K-12 education itself should be abolished. In my experience, far more parents send their kids to such schools to indoctrinate them, isolate them, and/or *keep* them from learning lessons rather than to provide them with a superior education. Racist and religious bigots send their kids to such schools to indoctrinate bigotry into their offspring. Rich parents sent their kids to such schools from having them from learning what life on the other side of the tracks is like. Technophobe parents and fundie ones send their kids to such schools from either using technology or to keep them from learning about science (esp. evolution).
Besides, if our leaders had to send their kids to public schools too, they would improve.
-stewartm
Shit, stewartm, if you can’t control you own kids, who can you control.
Personally, I’ve never cared to control anyone else, although I’ve been sorely tempted, and actually tried to figure out how with my son, who’s a unbelievable wingnut. But that’s another story.
I’m of two minds about public education. Have tried all available forms between myself & my son, except for home schooling. (He would have been dead about 2 months into that if I had tried it.) The only ed I loved for either of us was my public HS: 2000 students of every color and every other characteristic you can imagine. In the late 50s, early 60s, we self-segregated, and I had the advantage of being in the high category of institutionally imposed segregation, so I got a decent education (though woefully inadequate in study habits compared to the girls who came to Wellesley from private schools), but had great friends.
I have also undergone 2-3 reversals in general conclusions since I’ve been thinking carefully about this.
I guess I come out (now, reserving right to change my mind again later) thinking all of the above, not any one required simple A to complex Q. The rich will always find a way of sheltering themselves against the untidy masses, no matter what. Even if the rich were less richer than now.
The problem with public schools in the U.S. is the corp control of govts at all levels, so that is no magic bullet. Right now, for example, NCLB is all about dumbing down public ed so that govt propaganda is more easily forced down people’s throats.
Ugh. Here I am being long-winded bc I didn’t have time to write a short comment.
O is possibly the most disappointing person in the whole in the whole situation, he’s in a category by himself, sort of a secret controller.