I guess I am the odd man in the discussion but I hope the payroll tax is defeated. I know the law transfers money back to the SS trust fund. But since when do our politicians follow the law. They can break it at their leisure. Laws we don’t need no stinkin laws!

They think this helps insulate their members from charges of rejecting the deal, and causing a tax increase of on average $1,000 a year.

This maybe the dumbest idea the GOP has had since the Paul Ryan budget plan. Rep Ryan’s budget I think should get the credit for the Tea Party’s drop in the poll numbers to below Muslim.

Very much agree, popyeye99. And from reading previous threads on this matter I don’t believe you are the odd man at all, and I think that the rotten congressionals know it. Oh, they hear us under the clatter, and they know there are more of us on this side of the argument than the phony public ‘debate’ will ever allow to be heard. I take this as another of those silent victories WE are winning – they’ll never, never admit it but we scare them. And that’s just great. I don’t want this stinkin’ Congress passing ANY stinkin’ laws whatsoever! Look at what they did with the last rot they passed!

This is an issue all about perception, just as flying drones and nuclear issues are all about the perception that we, we, we alone are the world’s Superpower. It’s all bogus!

The emperor in Congress, just as the emperor on the campaign ‘trail’, just as the emperor at war

HAS NO CLOTHES!

And so say all of us.

I don’t know that Boehner’s worried the bill would pass, he just doesn’t want his caucus to carry the blame of it failing. So he does this loop-de-loop to avoid that charge.

Legally this may work but Americans will look at higher taxes assuming it takes effect for the up coming tax year or even worse for the GOP it takes effect for next years taxes just in time for the Presidential election.
Its hard to argue with people when they are personally effected negatively by politics and there is nothing more negative than seeing a $1,000 higher tax bill.
The GOP can’t do anything more to throw the election Obama’s way unless they argue for another cut to SS and Medicare.
Which I admit might be in the cards Rep Ryan has been doing tv shows lately despite being the most unpopular elected politician in America Newt and Sarah scored lower but they don’t have elected office.

Whoever wins this Khardashianlike melodrama the larger point is this is a bandaid on arterial bleeding. What per cent of O’s $445 billion stimulus will this amount to? Most rational economists thought $445 was too little.

This is what they do intead of making the country a better place to live. It’s really astonishing what they could accomplish if they took that time, energy and dedication and spent it on making people’s lives better.

But that would require not hating America, so they can’t do it.

The payroll tax cut does need to be paid for I agree we do need to make sure Congress does not spend any money that is suppose to go for SS, Medicare Schools etc on things like war or more bank bailouts.
Maybe we should make certain somehow that revenue is raised by different taxes goes directly to certain programs?

Not one to agree with that weasel Bill Clinton often, but this reminds me of what he said during an interview with John Stewart regarding the original stimulus (quote’s from memory so likely wrong, but the gist is correct, I think): “The economy had an 8 trillion dollar hole in it after the collapse. I don’t understand how you can fill an 8 trillion dollar hole with an 800 billion dollar stimulus.”

I think that still applies. Neither party, Obama included, really wants to “fix” the economy. They just want to look like the ones trying the hardest.

Clearly, this whole thing is about who gets slathered with the blame-shit.

I think both of them should get it, especially , considering that all Obama had to do early-on, was confront these assholes with their track record, at the same time he was running REAL reform legislation up to the hill and daring them to filibuster it, and they would have crawled so far under the troll-bridge that they’d have to be fed with slingshots. Instead, he did wondrous rehab on them, and now they’re monkey-wrenching even the token stuff that he’s trying to get passed so he can try to keep progressive dems on board for another 4 year sellout.

I’m like Gable in GWTW, talking to Scarlett:

“Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a shit.”

If the GOP were serious about the budget we would be talking about cutting military spending to twice what China spends.
It seems obvious that our Army spends money on God knows what but they can’t do what they are suppose to do which is win wars.
We need to look at the mistakes of Iraq and Afghanistan and say never again will we lose pallets of money when fighting a war.

Perhaps I am also alone as I blame the Senate assholes for this not legislaturds in the house. They knew this two month fix was not gonna pass the house.

Agreed every post like this should mention Obama’s lying hand in the budget. Surrender does not absolve him of responsibility we elected him to fight for what the majority of people wanted not what the banks wanted.

I saw Clinton on Stewart and you are right. There was no way the stimulus was gonna do anything other than “slow the slide”.

No I agree blame everyone in Washington:)

Why don’t we just give in and hire the MIC to rebuild our infrastructure; as long as they get a slice they will be for it.
We need good roads and airports to transport the stormtroopers so it is a military need.

I agree….Obama snatched defeat for the jaws of victory early on. And we are all paying the price NOW.

We need to point out that Obama’s stimulus was like giving a slice of bread to a starving person one shot stimulus does nothing for your hunger the next day.
We need jobs give a man a fish he is not hungry today. Let a man who knows how to fish fish at your lake everyday and he can eat everyday.

Right on!!!

Not sure who the MIC is but I think they are waiting for unemployment to get so bad they can hire us to fix America’s infrastructure at pay Mexican Immigrants won’t cross the border for:(

I don’t think they hate America, I think they hate Americans.

MIC=Military Industrial Complex that Dwight spoke about upon leaving office.

Thanks:) lets show Obama’s record of surrender *cough* accomplishment for what it really is a slice of bread to a starving person.

they will vote to call a conference committee with Senate negotiators to reconcile their poison pill-laden bill

So what are the major hand-grenades that are buried inside this steaming pile? The Keystone pipeline shit? What else?

Buncha fuckin’ criminals.

Thank You

“..we elected him to fight for what the majority of the people wanted; not what the banks wanted.”

Well, I believe you’ve put your finger on the whole problem, and Digby-esque parsing of bad-republican-minutiae is just more red herrings being dragged across Obama’s feckless trail. If Mr. Centrist had gone right after them, they would be politically irrelevant, and Obama would be on track to be one of our great presidents. Instead, the GOP is playing marbles with his political balls.

In other news, this pertaining to Iraq:

Mr. Shit, meet Mr. Fan:

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/12/19/iraqi-govt-collapses-as-iraqiya-kurdish-blocs-withdraw/

Crap good point given Obama’s record of surrender I bet the pipeline is already being constructed before washington approves the funds.

I almost wish they Keystone shit would pass. Because 1) IMO it’s going to happen anyway, and 2) the comedy value alone of watching Obama change course after saying “If the House forces us to make a decision now then the decision is NO.” That would be at least a 2 bagger (popcorn bags). Cause I know damn well he wouldn’t stick to that and he’d change and approve it, which brings me to 3) then I want to watch the bots explain how Obama changing and the Keystone Pipeline itself are such wonderful things (another 2 bagger).

All told, a four bagger. Not bad entertainment these days.

That’s very philisopihical, and catchy. But not very capitalistic.

“Give a man a fish from your lake and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish an charge him to fish at your lake so he canfeed his and you’ve got a money-making enterprise.”

Better yet, employ him to maintain your lake and pay him in fish, but only give him enough fish to scrape by, and force him to borrow money from you to keep his lights on and buy his kids shoes.

The Sunni and the Kurds are both leaving the government so soon? This was planned ahead of time the big oil companies I suspect are behind this and want better oil deals.
Plus a Shiite Iraq will have no choice but to turn to Iran for help this sets the stage for a war against Iran’s growing influence….Crap!

There we have it: The plan to solve the illegal immigration problem. :o)

I expect the Tea Party would be fine with the trade-off of “shit jobs for amurkans!”, as long as it would keep the Mexicans from wading the Rio Grande.

I must have missed the FDL analysis of why it’s such a great thing to support this extremely short term plan to rob even more from social security. Obama is the President we elected, is it wrong for us to expect him to foward an agenda supporting the interests of the people who elected him? He hasn’t acted once to protect the economic viability of our families, not once. And yet, once again FDL finds it important to make his reelection argument, venting on Republicans who control only one of three branches of our Gov’t. and can’t effect policy. Would it be incorrect or wrong to continually remind readers the “payroll TAX cut” is not a cut, it’s another way of stealing from our families futures to fund the inequities Obama has refused to address? It’s sad what’s going on at FDL, its first two years coverage of the Obama Administration was the BEST by far of ALL I read.

Iraqi government collapses into political mess two days after US withdrawal.

OK…who had 48 hours in the pool?????

What can I say…..you represent all that is “good” in corporate exploitation of the masses.

” Give up all your goods to the poor if you would follow me” JC America is a Christen Nation the GOP likes to say everytime the GOP screams Class Warfare we should reply Jesus said ” Give up all your goods to the poor if you would follow me” And that when judgment day comes its the GOP who will be left outside the door. Its the GOP who claim to speak in JC’s name but speak falsely.
I love blowing Christen GOPer minds gotta go:)

Not sure about Big Oil benefitting from the AK-47′s and the RPG’s coming out of the closets in Iraq. If that happens (when?) anyone who SMELLS like an american in Iraq will need a security battalion.

Now, I don’t know about that. The TEA party and others are not against hiring of illegals, they just don’t want YOU to hire illegals.

I’ve suckled at the teat of Ayn Rand… after paying an enormous amount of money for the nourishment and signing confidentiality and arbitration agreements. Oh, and any ideas I had afterward had to be attributed to Ayn since she provided me nourishment to stimulate my brain. So all my thoughts from that day forth are her intellectual property and I have to pay royalties to her estate.

Not even the most tin foil of the tin foil hats brigade I was at the meeting:) This smells of the oil companies and the CIA there is no way the Sunni would do this without an ok from us. Gotta go for real.

If that happens, Iraqi’s with just a whiff of American smell on them will need the same battalion.

Wow, and all this time I thought Rand was nucking futs. Genious, pure genious!!!

“Okay, who had 48 hours in the pool?”

Sorry to laugh about this…development, but that’s a funny question.

I sure didn’t have it. :o) I thought that there would be about a 90 day “grace period” in which the Iraqis would give the custodian of George Bush’s 3rd term a cosmetic delay in which Obama, as he’s already been doing, would get out the “mission accomplished” banner, and proclaim ice cream and pie for all Iraqis. It’s looking like the purple fingers are going to be inserted into trigger guards sooner than I thought.

I’m unable to see how the 0bots continue to support the one man that could do these tricks that are ruining the country. I guess that his knowledge of the Constitution is useful in that he can see exactly what he is doing to drive the country into bankruptsy. It doesn’t do anything for him to say that it is all congress’s fault because 0 worked so hard to breathe life back into the all-but-dead repugs. Had he done as he promised or implied, the repugs would have been as bad off as they were after Goldwater was defeated. By 0 being all bipartisany he put us in this position as tptb wanted.

yo tcu!

been a while since I’ve been too active, gonna add an edit to your excellent post, hope ya don’t mind

We need to point out that Obama’s stimulus was like giving a slice of bread to a starving person a loaf of bread to a wealthy person who has more bread then he can consume, and watching as you see people starving in the streets

there ya go

True. Fatcat repub contractors are to be exempt from any criticism for hiring fence-climbers.

Politically asute and magnanamous too. Kris, I am a fan.

And to think, we coulda pulled out three years ago with this same result.

“DR” had 48 hours in the pool. WHo is that?
..
..
Donald Rumsfeld???? No………….

“Iraqis…will need the same battalion.”

Good point. Across the board, I think it’s going to be back to square one. The question is, what will George Obama do then?

I think the initials were “DF”…as in, Douglas Feith.

I wonder if the United Nations, with Obama’s concurrence, will intercede and send in OUR troops as a “peace-keeping force”.

It IS an F not an R

Don’t worry, the sky isn’t falling afterall. $105B has already been transfered as the law requires.

Another valid objection raised by a White House official was that it was not clear that money from the general fund was transferred to Social Security this year to make up for the lost revenue from the tax holiday. For the record, $105 billion was transferred to make up the shortfall. It came from other tax collections and from borrowing. The point made by several people quoted in the story was that such a transfer undermines the notion that Social Security is self-financing and not a drain on the Treasury — and that people’s sense of entitlement to Social Security benefits is based on the program being financed entirely by withheld wages.

http://www.wnyc.org/npr_articles/2011/dec/07/update-payroll-tax-social-security-and-reaction-to-this-mornings-story/

It occurs to me that something on which american politicians are increasingly relying, is a belief on their part that most american have ZERO cogent memories of anything that happened more that 12 months ago.

In fact, both Obama and the republicans are counting heavily on that phenomenon, as they “compete” for the White House.

I must be having a good day. After that last post, I went over and checked out Doonesbury:

://news.yahoo.com/comics/doonesbury-slideshow/ :o)

Sorry, the link doesn’t work.

Most of the country will go bankrupt not o, bush/rove’s place keeper. o will never go bankrupt,never.

Tryin’ again:

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/doonesbury-slideshow/

Alright!

We pay insurance premiums on insurance !

In the future “If they can afford it in the budget”.

True but twelve months? how about twelve hours, look at the stock market today, yay. Start buying cuz everything is great in the Hamptons.

I guess I am the odd man in the discussion but I hope the payroll tax is defeated. I know the law transfers money back to the SS trust fund. But since when do our politicians follow the law. They can break it at their leisure. Laws we don’t need no stinkin laws!

I agree with you.

Deficit hysteria will raise its ugly head again very soon and the general fund transfers that compensate for the underfunding will be focused on by both parties as deficit contributors. The cost of our ever-expanding blood-thirsty empire will continue to be ignored.

Didn’t we say that about the Viet Nam war??

Of course the MSM will run interference for the pukes. “Unless BOTH SIDES find common ground, (millions will go with out light, the baby will die, etc.)” Or the Cokie Roberts-doll: “Why don’t the Democrats just give them what they want???”

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you get rid of him for the weekend.

Like I have said before I know they are making the transfers but it puts SS in the deficit debate and they can disregard the law anytime they want. Just look at the Defense Authorization Bill. The president can assassinate Americans, hold them till hell freezes over. Yes there is a law but since when has that stopped them from railroading the 99%. My 2 cents.

I thought the payroll tax holiday was a step in dismanteling the payroll tax entirely. I figured you all here would applaud this move.

Keeping the “tax cut” of not paying into SS and Medicare is designed to provide an excuse to say that these costs are part of the deficit. By being so ‘magnanimous’ 0 and the congress have started the irrevocable slide toward ending SS and Medicare as we know it. Voting for 0 is simply bringing the veal pen to its conclusion. We know what happens to the calves in the veal pen.

What are you thinking?

Calling the payroll tax a tax is only useful when responding to accusations that the low wage earning half the country doesn’t pay taxes. Then the payroll tax and gas tax, etc. are dirty regressive components of the tax system of the 1%.

Otherwise, payroll taxes fund the comfy social safety net, and gas taxes fund much needed infrastructure, and cat food, and bridges crumbling, etc.

Let’s see, didn’t the senate bill include an item to charge the banks more money for the fannie and freddie mortgage guarantee? I read somewhere that this will cost someone with a 200k mortgage about $117 a month. Fucking wonderful.

But all this shit is just finding a way to blame the other guy anyway. The real fun is going to be next year when it comes time to make the bush tax cuts permanent. I’m going to sell popcorn to that one.

As a smoker I object to the cigarette tax! It’s a dirty, regressive component of the tax system of the 1%!

Count me as glad to see the deal dead. Not just because of the potential damage to SS but because the overriding argument has Democrats and Obama adopting Republican talking points as policy, not that that’s anything new for O. Putting the payroll tax rate back where it was is not a “tax increase.” That’s the exact same argument Republicans used against letting the Bush tax cuts expire.

…. Putting the payroll tax rate back where it was is not a “tax increase.” That’s the exact same argument Republicans used against letting the Bush tax cuts expire.

I like the way you think.

I agree. The recall span is getting shorter by the day.

“What 100,00-plus dead Iraqis, and what 5,000 dead americans? WHOSE trillion dollars? ”

Now, let’s look forward, not backward.

Oh, joy.

My last state unemployment check is the one that covers me through Saturday. With Federal benefits expiring Sunday, I can’t get into the Federal program, and will have ZERO income to go with my ZERO savings.

December’s checks will cover the rent (that’s why I had move out of Los Angeles, to find a place where I could “survive” on a lousy $840/month [of course the tradeoff for avoiding immediate homelessness was loss of access to the L.A. job market]), but then I’ll be truly fucked at the end of January.

Whereas if even the two-month extension had passed, I’d be in the program and covered for the next 20 weeks (through mid-May). Indeed, I was counting January as a three-check month, with benefits on the weeks of the 8th and the 22nd, but the check on the week of February 5th likely hitting my bank in time to cover the rent check I’d turn in on Friday, Feb 3rd. So with a whopping $1260 in my plans and just $655 rent/$35 water and sewer and trash/$20 electric (thanks CARE!)/$10 gas (ditto)/$45 internet (a vice, I know)/$2.50 phone (thanks, Federal Lifeline Service) on the docket, I would have almost $500 in disposable income, for one of only two times in the calendar year (instead of the less-than-$100 I usually have).

I could buy food (because the food stamps aren’t enough to cover me for the month), rather than live off potatoes/visit soup kitchens! I could go out to eat once a week or so! I could buy shoes to replace the pair I had to sew together yesterday (complete split down the right-hand side fixed, but for how long?)! I could do laundry more than once a month! (Not counting washing the socks and underwear in the sink, as I have to do now). I could save a little so Feb/March/etc weren’t as much of a scrimp. I could afford to go to L.A. for a job interview if need be! (right now, I can’t afford the $30 round-trip train/bus fare the interview would cost…given the cost of commuting, an L.A. job would have to be somewhat lucrative to offset that, but right now I can’t even consider it)

But no. Forget luxuries like that (never mind the $20 box of vintage baseball cards I had my eye on, or a new t-shirt at Target and other things I hardly need), if nothing gets passed I’ll be homeless by February. If something gets passed in late January, I’ll be paying bounced-check fees and begging my landlord’s forgiveness for the next few months, not to mention trying to make it with barely $50/month in “disposable” income.

And if Congress gets to work right after New Years, I might…just might… be able to continue my current hand-to-mouth shoestring drudgery until I make up for the “missed” check, sometime in July or whenever.

Good news is, I wouldn’t need to buy bullets for my suicide; I have a little mini-swiss army knife, so the bathtub is always there if need be. Just remember to cut up and down the arms, not across. (Get the flow going…the last thing you want to do is clot up halfway through. Then you’re still alive, with scars, and you have to clean the tub. That can’t be fun.)

[Okay, not actually suicidal yet. But check with me in February. And I suppose they're only moving my suicide up by 73 weeks anyway, so what's the diff, really? It's not like 2012 is going to be such fun I'd hate to miss it.]

Thank you for sharing your experience. It’s horrible how difficult things are for you right now.

If you are genuinely suicidal, be in next month or in the future, please consider reaching out to someone first. There are plenty of resources available for counseling, and there are members of this community who would be happy to help you through tough times. I find it’s always helpful to talk to someone.

Not sure how serious you were in those last two paragraphs, but if you were serious and you feel like talking, email me. notorious2again AT gmail DOT com.

Procedurally nothing has happen – the Senate Bill is before the House to be called up when the Speaker wishes and voted on.

We will have a week of “we already voted for the tax cut” (forgetting about the poison pill of cutting 99 to 59 weeks of UE benefits, with a pay for of a cut in Medicare) – followed by either a vote on the Senate Bill – or Not. It is the House GOP’s decision.

Ouch, that’s one I avoided.

DDay has an update on the front page. The bill was sent to committee and essentially killed, just as DDay predicts above.

The so called Payroll tax cut is code for Dim. betrayal. Instead, of paying for things the right way by raising taxes on the 1%, these pricks use this awful payroll trick to put a knife into the back of SSI, while trying to claim it’s a break for the Middle and working class. They’re cowards and villains. I hate both groups. Kick em all out!

Crap- just when I thought I might get a can of Spam to go with my Ramen noodles for christmas. Guess I better save my money for the doctor. Crap!

What makes you think so?

Think of it this way.

Everyone (all 99%ers and even low wage earners) pays payroll taxes on the first dollar of thier income up to about $110,000. High wage earners (1%ers) don’t pay payroll taxes above that amount.

Only about 1/2 the US population (half the 99%) pays any federal income taxes into the General Fund (most 1%ers pay at least some percent tax on income all the way up).

So maybe it’s not a bad thing to allow everyone to keep their 2% payroll taxes, provided it’s made up from the General Fund, financed by the high wage earners of the 99% and the 1%.

God bless you for offering to help with VS rather than “avoiding”. I work with people all the time in similar situations and despondency is a real problem these days. I truly believe humans are naturally good and you are proof of that. Keep the faith.

To VoteSocialist@#73:

Unemployment benefit extension is a no-brainer, and apologies for concentrating on the other end of things with the payroll tax cut sunset – assuredly, wouldn’t it be the best Christmas present the jobbed could extend to the jobless to say (as do some millionaires) Yes! We want to continue paying our payroll taxes; so darn it, fund the jobless! Instead, they want to get us on the same moneycraving rollercoaster the politicians are all on, where we mindlessly repeat no taxes, we want tax cuts, till the whole entire system goes down the drain. Mindlessly!

This is how you nibble away at foundational measures of a healthy society. How can we even hope that the politicians engaged in this false enterprise will ever think of the common good?

Bless your heart, VoteSocialist, before you ever go to the measures your mind suggests, join up with a vibrant Occupy group (they are everywhere) and be a part of our future – even if it is only at arm’s length, do engage with them in whatever way you can. We are on the edge of huge changes; hang in there and be a part of it. We need you.

What part of ‘the Social Security fund should not be a part of the General Fund’ do you not understand, alan? You must have a very short memory, since the machinations of the SuperCongress have barely gone out of my elderly brain cells. Shoehorning that fund into the General Fund should NEVER have happened! What good did it do? It simply made it possible for you to claim (erroneously) that Social Security IS now part of the General Fund (and therefore part of the deficit “problem”.)

Do we all shout houray and way to go, Brownie along with you?

No, we don’t!

Bless your heart, VoteSocialist, before you ever go to the measures your mind suggests, join up with a vibrant Occupy group (they are everywhere) and be a part of our future – even if it is only at arm’s length, do engage with them in whatever way you can. We are on the edge of huge changes; hang in there and be a part of it. We need you.

x1million.

What KrisAinTX said.

Thank you.

I guess I am the odd man in the discussion but I hope the payroll tax is defeated. I know the law transfers money back to the SS trust fund.

Regardless, you want a vote that will deny me a substantial amount of cash (I live simply, buddy) in my paycheck during the last six months before I retire next year. Swell…

Way to help a guy making $37,000. a year.

The nearest Occupy group is in Sacramento, I think. So I can either pay the rent for January ($690 including the mandatory water/sewer/trash) or travel there (about $100, I’m guessing) and have $600 walking-around money. Not sure that sacrificing all of my possessions (I know, rather ironically materialist of me) to go squat in Sacramento is how I’d like to spend my last few weeks on Earth, but who knows? At least I could see a Kings game, maybe enjoy a good restaurant.

Guess I’ve got about a week to decide, huh?

Well, never actually suicidal, obviously, or I’d be gone already, right? But tough to imagine any reason to survive in my already pointless empty existence once I’m homeless. So probably would be best to just end it…we’ll see when I get there, I suppose.

Or who knows, I could get hired. At 48…with no degree…and no resume…surrrrrre.

If you want to talk, I’m available. If you want help with a resume, I can help with that, too.

Email me, if you’d like. I’d appreciate the opportunity to help you in any way that I can.

Why do you attack?

I never said ‘the Social Security fund should not be a part of the General Fund’. And by the way, it isn’t. The SS Trust Fund has been borrowed against down to zeroish, but the government iou’s are still there and I believe will be paid back.

Is that what you mean by ‘Shoehorning that fund into the General Fund should NEVER have happened!’

It simply made it possible for you to claim (erroneously) that Social Security IS now part of the General Fund (and therefore part of the deficit “problem”.)

Don’t think I ever said that. I have said that SS is now taking funds from the General Fund so it’s not independent – self supporting program it was, but we’re talking $105B in 1 year which is a tiny percent.

Here’s the catch up until now nobody ever considered funding SSI through the General fund. That turns SSI into even more of a political football then Obama has already done to it by touching it. Only a Dim could have gotten away with such a move. Do you really believe a Retardican Pres. or Congress has an intention of ever making up for it? Not in this life.

BTW, SSI has always been funded through the General fund.

Supplemental Security Income (SSI) is a Federal income supplement program funded by general tax revenues (not Social Security taxes):

It is designed to help aged, blind, and disabled people, who have little or no income; and

It provides cash to meet basic needs for food, clothing, and shelter.