I do hope many political careers in VA are also doomed as a result of this unforgivable episode in the War on Women.

If Jill Holtzman Vogel sponsored and introduced the bill (which she must have if she can strike it), you’d think she would have read it first. But that might have been too much to ask, if she is merely the state senate tool for introducing such legislation. One could hope that her legislative career has just ended, but (sigh!) probably not.

But look what’s still in that diabolical bill (as in, the devil’s in the details):

Lawmaker: Virginia bill requires ultrasound for miscarriages

““A missed miscarriage is when the embryo or fetus dies but continues to stay in the uterus,” she [Del. Jennifer McClellan] explained. “In that miscarriage, guess what you have to do to complete it. You have to have an abortion. By specifically inserting an exception for a spontaneous miscarriage, you’ve excluded from the ultrasound bill the very miscarriages that don’t require an abortion. By definition, you are requiring an ultrasound for the miscarriages that do. Words matter.”’

LINK.

We must get these slimy politicians’ hands off our bodies!

Point of information: One place I read that only the vaginal test would work in most cases bc the belly one doesn’t show a fetus at as early a stage of development as when most abortions occur. Anyone know the accuracy of that?

At a minimum she should have been req to have the procedure before she was allowed to sponsor the bill.

We must get these slimy politicians’ hands off our bodies!

Much too late for that.

Don’t have a link for you right now, but it’s false. In several of the pieces I’ve read on this bill, it’s made clear (maybe even in McDonnell’s statement) that in order to gauge the development stage of the fetus to ensure it’s within the period permitted by Roe, surface abdominal ultrasound is perfectly sufficient.

I’m thinking this legislator didn’t understand (if we give her the benefit of the doubt to believe her…not that I do) it’s because it’s an ALEC bill that she was simply recruited to sponsor. She may have read it or not, but obviously has no understanding of physiology, nor the other one mentioned. These people are ideological, not smart.

On edit…McClellan’s explanation is ridiculously confused. For one thing, a “miscarriage” is the colloquial word for what is medically termed “spontaneous abortion.” Nor is it defined by a fetus that dies but “remains in the body.” Cripes, what an idiot, and she a woman!
Most times a woman discovers she’s having a miscarriage when the embryo/fetus is expelled from the body!
Sometimes it is not expelled, and a “d&c” is required. “Dilation and curettage.” Now, a d&c performed with a living fetus in the uterus would result in an abortion, but it is NOT in itself an abortion.

I could go on, but will spare you and myself. I guess this woman was lucky enough never to experience a miscarriage, or she thinks that the kind she had is the only kind, or she’s just stupid.

Me too!

I suspect that large numbers of women united against this bill.
The sooner our stupid male legislaturds in every state learn that is one segment of the voting populus you don’t want to piss off, the better.

Of course, most of the men I discussed this with were disgusted with it too. How did it even come up for consideration? Ignorant, right-wing, imbeciles who think it is THEIR job to “manage” women and their bodies.
Bad plan dumbasses!!!!!

Thanks.

Let’s not forget that Texas passed an ultrasound bill, not the invasive one here, but it passed just the same. Planned Parenthood and the ACLU have, of course, filed lawsuits against it. And, the Tx democratic party is haveing a bunch of precinct meetings this weekend all over the stat to coordinate protests and efforts to have it overturned.

Ths Texas bill will most likely make it to the SCOTUS unless the Tx Supreme Court catches enough shit. They might. Lot of justifiably pissed off women here. And, they all drive big trucks with guns in the back.

Read somewhere yesterday that an R congressman said that birth control was NOT about women. It sure as hell is not about men so who is it about? Idiots.

What I don’t uderstand is that republicans state, accurately for a change, that 40% of children are born out of wedlock and THAT is a big problem. Frankly, I tend to agree. But, how many of those children might not have been born had their single mothers had available, free birth control? You can’t make them get married so thge onl sensible anbswer is to make sure they have ample availabioity to birth control.

I watched those repugs dance around the issue last night. They are galactically stupid if they don’t see available, free birth control is a good solution to unwanted pregnancies and out of wedlock births. PLus, one solution ALSO stems the spread of STD’s. 2 birds, dontcha know?????

We did it before. Remember all that? We were so outrageous they even circulated a false story that we were burning our bras–apparently the worst offense against them they could conceive (pun intended).

The time is ripe right now to strike, and strike, and strike again. Their hatred of us and their medieval tactics against us are totally exposed.

As newcarguy says @ 9, they “think it is THEIR job to “manage” women and their bodies.” We must prove them wrong, yet once again.

The Rs do this every four years for several reasons – they don’t have a clue about how to solve any of the real problems and they use women, gays, God, and guns to whip up the ignorant – and it works.

So if it’s that early, shouldn’t be a problem…seems to me.

I just want to know if some of the hard heads & hearts have learned anything.

It’s amazing how backwards some parts of this country really can seem.

I, for one, thought the “burning bras” thing was very effedtive. Now,of course, you know, lots of wmen didn’t actually “burn” them. They just didn’t wear one. I was in college in 69-70 when this was popular. And, frankly, I enjoyed that quite a bit. My girlfriend, now wife of 41 years, observed that protest. She had some great knockers. Not too big, not to small with the just the right amount of “movement” when she walked.

Truer words were never spoken. But it’s “women, God, gays and guns.”

I might of shared a little too much there.

I think it’s nice that you appreciated how she looked. She probably thinks it’s nice, too.

The assault is much greater now than it was in the original days of feminism. The power & money are much more concentrated and they know the tactics and have armed themselves against them. They are prepped and we are not.

Will the makers of Pampers, Gerbers, etc resurrect this type of legislation when their 5 yr corporate marketing plan shows a sales decline in the Virginia region? Could Toys R Us and Wal-Mart keep the regions’ minimum wage earners employed if we invade women’s rights to their own bodies, decisions, etc. Could these have nat’l implications for all the unemployed retail and grocery clerks currently sleeping in the streets or dumpster diving? I mean, could there possibly be more of them? Does lowering corporate taxes and closing the loopholes put us on the path to a balanced budget without damaging nat’l security? and keeping current consumption levels up? A childless couple needs to know these things when making our stock picks. Thanks and your answers will really be appreciated by the home owners association here in Cabo San Lucas.

Next time, let them secede, they’re not worth keeping.

And who would’ve guessed that West Virginia would be the smarter part?

I think a lot of children are born OW bc fewer & fewer people think marriage is worth it. Doesn’t mean they don’t live in stable 2 adult stable HH.

Something like 75% or 95% of civil unions in France are formed by hetero couples who want to take advantage of the benefits but don’t want the additional hassle of marriage.

In a fair world it ought to be about women and men. However, since, right now, women bear the responsibility of actually providing any life created with the support and nutrients it needs to grow at the detriment to her own body I fail to see how anyone could not see this as primarily an issue that affects women.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, when the first man dies in childbirth then and only then will men have an equal say on what risk a woman should and should not be forced to undertake because they’ll have equal skin in the game. Until then the response ought to be I defer to the individual who actually has to live with the consequences of choosing to carry to term or abort a fetus.

That was Issa, by the way. He IS an idiot.

Not really the same topic, but DN had a reporter tearing Santorum apart. Lots of background; he kept wondering why Romney had not hit S. harder with a bunch of this stuff.

Good point. The OW % are probably a little inaccurate due to that. Having kids together outside marriage has become not only prevalent but acceptable. Have several incidents of that in my family.

But we also have several situations of single mothers with no male companion involved at all, except, of course, for the conception phase. And this, was the choice of the mother. In my case, several female cousins/nieces. One has three kids with three diferrent fathers. Oh, some of the guys pay child support. Some don’t and get away with it here in Texas.

Correction: World class idiot

My single niece had a son using artificial insemination. He is now 13.

All kinds of choices these days.

Christ-tard martyrs used to die for their principles. Modern christ-tard pols just read the polls.

It absolutely amazes me that the GOP thinks that Santorum is electable. It totally goes to show how completely off the rails some of the party has become.

I can’t imagine that it would do our country good to replace fireside chats with Sunday sermons on what Rick really think God wants our country to do and how anyone who believes differently is being influenced by Satan.

Some of the GOP really seems to be yearning for a theocracy. Instead of muslim clerics though we get Catholic bishops.

In the good U.S. tradition of Cotton Mather, dontcha know.

Witch trials next.

I heard the same thing in.re. surface ultrasound being inadequate in the first months of pregnancy on TV last night (the Young Turks I think). No offense to tejanarusa, but I think further investigation is warranted.

I saw a show last summer. The topic was how many women were choosing single motherhood because they wanted a baby and couldn’t find a guy they wanted to marry. Lots of the Gen-X’ers are choosing this. Others, chjoose the Goldie Hawn/Kurt Russell “have kids just don’t get married” thing. As my dad used to say, “That’s why they make different flavors of ice cream.”

It depends on what the purpose is. If the purpose is to prove that the fetus is developed less than a certain number of weeks, and it doesn’t show up on a belly scan, that proves the case, as RevBev points out in 16. I thought the purpose was to guilt out the pregnant woman, in which case the vaginal scan would have to be used in the case of very early pregnancies.

It’s the end of that era. Plain vanilla for everyone now. It’s the law, dontcha know.

The Judeo-Christian god finds facts and knowledge to be anathema to belief in him and his dictates. He did expel Adam and Eve from the Garden for eating from the Tree of Knowledge, because he demands blind obedience and faith. Don’t think and question, just obey.

Not to mention the extreme misogyny in that passage from the bible. Eve is the evil one who tempts Adam.

Why are men so afraid of women.

I thought the purpose was to exert control over women’s bodies as well as subjecting them to a humiliating procedure designed to avert abortions. Some of these christofascists believe that life begins at conception and they probably have a connection to medical facilities that will profit from the cost of the testing, as well.

Ah, but don’t forget Lillith: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

Lots of people forget that just two months ago 62% of republicans viewed Santorum as an “unacceptable” nominee.

You can’t expect anything but misogyny from a patriarchal belief system, can you?

You mean “Why men ARE so afraid of women.” ?????
That whole “apple thing” has us a little gun shy.

I’m sure all of that was part of the not-so-hidden agenda, but apparently there’s some nodding acquaintance with Roe v. Wade, so they had to pretend otherwise. Or something. I can’t warp my mind around what they might be thinking anymore.

Hey….Adam let Eve be in charge and look how that ended. :-)

That bit of ‘history’ was written by males. Who knows what the accurate version would have been. Though we can guess.

I haven’t forgotten Lilith, but then I’m not religious. I like my fiction to be separate from reality. If one was to take the Bible literally, then one would have to admit the entire human race was the product of either incest or masturbation (Eve origin being from Adam’s rib).

Ahhhhh. You dispute the accuracy of that story????
Interesting…….

All I can say is that my wife does the grocery shopping and makes all the meal choices in my household. You think it was different in Adam & Eve’s time?????? :-)

I’m not religious either, but it’s a great myth. She refused to be subservient to Adam, thus resulting in her leaving the Garden of Eden and doing what she wanted to do, living life on her own terms. And she is certainly not in the Bible. No self-respecting misogynist would let her in there. She’s much too dangerous, might upset the Abrahamic anti-women tradition entirely, dontcha know.

I never “bought” the “rib” thing. But as EVERYTHING started f rom Adam & Eve……..I do have a conundrum regardiong the “incest” issue that never quite struck me before now.

You’re still alive, aren’t you? (Although if I were married to you, it wouldn’t be such a sure thing.)

I though they BOTH got tossed from the GofE because of her regrettable choice of ingredients for the evening “fruit salad”.

I used to wonder about the incest thing. A long time ago. Any time I could spare a few seconds from counting the angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Oh, you’re talking about Eve, I think. We’re talking about Lillith, Adam’s first wife, who refused to be subservient to Adam or to God, and who left Eden for that very reason.

Good point. I can only wonder if there are some OTHER parts of the “creationist” theory that might have holes in it. Otherwise, you gotta go with the incest.

I’m not a big bible reader. I always miss that shit on Jeopardy. That ad Opera.

I didn’t know Adam was previously married. I thought “Lilith” was female rock concert.

Now they can get back to focusing on their “Anal Probes if You Want to Collect Unemployment Compensation” bill.

Can’t have any assholes collecting UI. (Or SS or MC or any of those other welfare queen programs O will kill in his second term.)

WHOA……Hadn’t heard of that.

NO doubt that has republican support in both houses. That should cut down on new applications…..substantially.

BTW, it would make an interesting study if you could do it to figure out how much incest there is in fundamentalist religious sects.

Well, I looked this up, Adam and Eve only had three sons, Cain, Abel and Seth. (Personally, I wasn’t aware of Seth)

You DO the math!

My brother-in-law is visiting this weekend. He’s REALLY religious and believes in the creationist theory.

Tell ya’ what. I’ll ask him.

DEEP RECTAL EXAMS for the fathers should be required so that men can feel, really feel, the depths to which the Repubs are going to discourage abortion. Add on a prostate biopsy of the father to require that MEN have some skin in the game, too. As soon as you start violating the boyz, the Virginia ratpack of evil legislators will back off.

So, they had to pull back the more hideous parts of their ultra-sound anti-women bill in VA, and yet they’ve had another defeat as a result of the uproar they created:

Personhood bill dies in Senate, Ultrasound bill delayed

LINK.

Only vaguely familiar with Lillith. Didn’t know anything about Seth. Vaguely aware the Jesus had a brother. Gave up on theism over half a century ago. Seems like “fruitful” area for further research.

WRT Adam’s 3 sons, any daughters mentioned?

Any graphic descriptions of circle jerks or blow jobs or anal intercourse.

Just trying to learn about stuff of which I am ignorant, ya know.

MY research indicates that A&E MAY have had some daughters in addition to the 3 sons. But, back then, daughters were not mentioned in “the Bible”. (Don’t blame me). So, unless mommy bore the chilren for her sons, there certainly HAD to be some other females around.

Regarding your par#3, insufficient data exists although one could certainly draw some reasonable conclusions, given the circumstances.

Funny, nobody caught these basic inaccuracies before. BTW, one of the sons, Cain or Abel, I forget, was killed but the other one before he had children. Meaning that only TWO of A&E’s sons could propagate the species. All seems extremely unlikely to me.

Unless, a spaceship form Alpha Centauri landed here with a bunch of cloned humans and “dropped them off” so to speak. I hear there is a whole ‘nother theory around that.

Does the word marriage apply? I mean technically they didn’t have any churches or pastors. We also know that in the Old testament that marriage was definitely NOT between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. I guess he wasn’t aware that He was undermining marriage. *shrugs*

monty….let’s not even GO there.

What do you want to take THAT off the table????

I’m checking into that. As I said earlier, this whole LILITH thing is news to me. And I attended 8 years of Catholic Cathecism. I can;t believe this never came up. Wife, live-in lover, part-time whore. Beats the hell out of me.

“We also know that in the Old testament that marriage was definitely NOT between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN.”
————-
You can see why the Dominican Sisters of St. Agnes miught have failed to mention THAT.

Do Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich know this.????? Can you “cc” them on this issue or send them a link to thei FDL thread????

I spose the fundie A to that Q was that A&E had a personal (aka mystical) relationship with god so that god actually administered the marriage ceremony. And as Lilleth had already vacated, the ORIGINAL marriage was one man & one woman.

Of course, just guessing about all of this and disparately hoping a troll will show up to set me straight.

You NEVER canfind a troll when you need one.

You didn;t capital the “G” in God.

You might want to go back and edit that.

Then there was Lot, who did the nasty with his two daughters and had a hand in conceiving his own granddaughters. But, Lot was drunk, so it didn’t count thereby creating for future generations a convenient out: Hey, I was drunk–it’s not my fault!

Have you seen any of Betty Bowers videos?

She’s a hoot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OFkeKKszXTw#!

I’ve always kind of giggled at people who take the Bible as literal. Imagine if you will playing the game telephone over millions of years and then imagine having to translate it the original message from one language into many languages. Imagine that a bunch of fallible human beings have been tasked with THAT assignment. Even if you believe it as God’s word, you can bet that the translators were not perfect and they could have made mistakes in their interpretations.

No, there is a reason I prefer prayer to spending days pouring over old writings when I find myself questioning things. I figure if God wants me to know something is right or wrong I go directly to the source, not Jerry Falwell’s interpretation of what God said to King James’ translator.

Lot…….he was the guy with the wife that had the “sodium” problem. Right???

You might be interested in R. Crumb’s Book of Genesis. It’s, as they say, “graphic” as only R. Crumb can do it.