I don’t have an answer to the slaughter in Syria. I wish I did, it would make things much easier.

In other words when faced with outright slaughter around the globe we in the U.S. have some tough choices to make.

Sit on your hands, wail about the human carnage, and paste a bumper sticker on the ol’ Prius, I guess, because there is nothing short of military intervention which will stop a regime like Assad’s; plain and simple.

Are you suggesting that we should send troops? If so, where would we get them? Are we willing to have more of our soldiers die in a “war” that we could never win? There are times when we have no choice but to let countries sort themselves out on their own. The mass murder in Syria is horrible but shall we bomb them and kill even more?

I don’t believe there is no popular support for Assad. I don’t believe the casualty numbers. I do believe that Washington is behind the killing in Syria. The American Empire doesn’t have a humanitarian bone in it’s entire murderous body. If it did it would LEAVE the Middle East.

That part of the world, and others, have been subjected to despots and tyrants for so l ong, many people don’t know anything different. Egypt WON their revolution, but look where they are now. Libya, maybe doing a little better. As David says, “I don’t have an answer”. That’s because there is no answer. Even when they revolt, they just get another dictator who kills his opponents and raids the bank. In many parts of the world, “Power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

Excellent, David!

I think Juan Cole does himself a disservice by mocking “those on the left” for their inability to come up with a solution in Syria because of disinclination to military intervention. He sounds like every warmonger who blames “pacifists” for letting people die.

Precisely. Sadly, it seems the esteemed professor Cole has drunk the R2P Kool-Aid. Perhaps he’ll start to consider the horrific mess we’ve just made in Libya before he goes off on the next militaristic orgy of violence that will kill thousands of the very same people he wishes to “protect.”

Does he not appreciate the fact that the road to Tehran goes through Damascus?

No, I’m not advocating sending troops, planes, ships, or the Merchant Marine to Syria. It’s time for everyone to realize that stark choices have to be made in these situations: either we send in the troops or we wash our hands of it and move on. “Free Tibet!” bumper stickers look good on the fashionable streets of SoHo but do absolutely nothing to get the Tibetans out from under the Chinese thumb.

But you say you are not advocating sending in troops, etc. so what are you advocating? I seems to me that there is nothing we can do. There are so many places that are having terrible problems and we can’t fix any of them. Africa is a good example.

Re Juan Cole, whose analysis of Middle East issues I respect but whose willingness to pull the trigger I don’t, I just left this comment at his site:

Prof. Cole, you wrote this:

“Because of gridlock at the UN Security Council, and because of regional splits, the Syrian people are likely on their own. They began their uprising, they will have to finish it. … The regional powers balance and check one another, just as the global ones do.”

Particularly in light of that, if we are not to take your references to that incredibly-vague term “the left” as anything other than a gratuitous slam, I think it’s necessary for you to do what you have attacked others for failing to do: explain precisely what it is you think we – however you care to define the term, whether the world community in general, the West in particular, or the US specifically – should do.

Or are you as “clueless” as those at who you sneer?

One of the hardest things for anyone with a conscience to accept is that sometimes there just isn’t a whole lot you can do.

Rafe, be careful what you wish for, because you will probably get it in this case.

The US, Israel and Saudis armed these groups that started the civil war, for the purpose of destabilizing Syria in the run-up to attacking Iran. You don’t think they got their sniper rifles and C4 at the Homs Wal-Mart, did you?

Now, given that these “freedom fighters” are largely radical Islamist groups, the potential for blowback later on is truly massive. So do you really think the US wants the Islamists to win? Or perhaps they merely want a lot of bloodshed to destabilize the country for their own purposes? Do you honestly think that a new regime wouldn’t want to establish its legitimacy by retaking the Golan Heights?

So here’s the nub of this: If we start raining missiles and cluster bombs on Syria, it will just be mass murder in the run-up to blasting Iran back into the Stone Age. There will be no “humanitarian” outcome, because that was never in consideration. Recall when Poppy Bush set up the Shia’s in Iraq, by urging them to rise up, only to abandon them in the crucial moment. What Obama is doing with Syria right now seems to be largely the same thing. The killing weakens the regime, but it’s not enough to topple it. It weakens their ability to react to an attack on Iran.

That is the whole point here. Saving people was never a priority and never will be.

“The US, Israel and Saudis armed these groups that started the civil war, for the purpose of destabilizing Syria in the run-up to attacking Iran. You don’t think they got their sniper rifles and C4 at the Homs Wal-Mart, did you?” So, that means you think Assad is some benign Dictator and that its ok for him to use his army to kill thousands? Its ok for Hezbollah to rain missiles down on Israel then? Sure. Because you’d like to see all the JEWS leave the area and if that means in a coffin so be it, right? Its always it seems Israel’s fault when these awful places blow up isn’t it? Grow up already this is the fucking ME and Iran and Syria are nasty as places and no friends of anybody. You love ASSAD so much go fight for him and his Iranian pals then. This is in fact an inter-Arab thing. The Sunni majority in Syria has had enough of Assad and the Alawite tribe ruling them by fiat and are rising against them. Its not some prelude to a War with Iran. But then everything is a prelude to something isn’t it?

Hasbara much, you reactionary, bigoted imbecile?

Shorter seaglass: Not wanting to commit mass murder of innocent civilians for a crass, fascistic, geo-political game that may very well start World War Three means I love Assad and hate Jews?

Nice touch, that. Lacking any coherent response, just go for the ad hom.

The information/propaganda you’re subjected to is from the same corporate MSM that thrives on war. No mention of the other perspective that attributes the majority of the unrest to foreign provocation and US funding for instigating the regime change in Syria that would benefit Israel and Saudi Arabia and further isolate the “Demon” Iran. Vijay Prashid’s article at counterpunch.org described “Humanitarian Aid” as the lubricant for war. Do biased accounts of foreign atrocities distract you sufficiently to enable the expansion of corporatism and the police State at home?

Thank you for the answer to seasponge another paid mouth piece like juan cole of the dod/cia noise machine.

juan that libya project went really well

Wrote my comments @12 before reading your post @9. Sorry for the repetition of your argument, but sometimes the misinformed need to hear the truth in.re. the Realpolitik campaign that’s being waged in the ME and Asia.

Right, Rafe. The only reasonable response would be to declare war on China.

Admit it, that’s what you’re advocating. And then try to wash the blood of millions of dead people off your hands.

CIA compromised Juan should never have been consulted in.re. Libya, considering that his “forte” is the ME and not N. Africa.

But, but — these are HARD choices. Made by Very Serious People. And negotiation is never the answer, invading other countries and occupying them is. Because we’re the most powerful country on the planet, and hence, under constant threat. It’s the White Man’s Burden, dontchaknow?

And it always works out well. LIke in Vietnam — er, Korea — er, Libya — er, Afghanistan — er, Iraq.

Nope, and trying to wring that from my posts is an exercise in torment of the written word. I don’t advocate sending our military over to Tibet or anywhere else, but short of that the Tibetans or Syrians or anyone else being repressed and slaughtered won’t stop.

This article is just another example of saying “Hey look, another massacre” in a long line of examples; other than raising a brief awareness and then getting back to our daily lives, what does it accomplish?

Juan Cole is broken record, he’s an imperial “humanitarian” interventionist, pied piper for the left, and and MIC fluffer.
There’s not an imperial war that he doesn’t find something to love about it.

His paternalistic abuse of non interventionists is as specious as his reasoning is to support it.

A reflection:

March of 2003: “I remain convinced that, for all the concerns one might have about the aftermath, the removal of Saddam Hussein and the murderous Baath regime from power will be worth the sacrifices that are about to be made on all sides.”

“Cole later went on to label as “daft” the notion that NATO’s Libyan preoccupation has been all the while motivated by an unsavory craving for oil. This comes without surprise, since the professor can be safely counted among those liberal interventionists who remain convinced that NATO’s 78-day bombing of Yugoslavia was a good-intentioned exercise in restraint (“Kosovo, not Iraq,” has been a pro-war rallying cry of Informed Comment).

The campaign against Yugoslavia was actually a conspiracy (yes, that’s right) against the Serbian economy, as a few WikiLeaked cables make clear. The method is simple: assault (with bombs) and snatch (with privatization), ridding the subject country of “a hierarchical system that made no sense,” for “social ownership gave low-level employees the power to make important production, sales, and purchase decisions that would normally be left to management professionals and company directors in a market economy.” Indeed, with NATO’s arrival came the beginning of Serbia’s “very difficult transition to a capitalist economy.”

About the oil spoils of Libya, Cole writes, “Libya was already integrated into the international oil markets,” giving one the impression that the oil tycoons and the masters of international capital were happy with the way things were going in Libya. They were not. “[International oil companies] describe [Libya] as an extremely challenging environment that consistently tests their patience and financial limits,” one WikiLeaked cable reads.

ENI, Italy’s state based oil company had a contract with Libya, who split the proceeds 50/50. Enrico Mattei, its first oil minister was a leftist who coined the term “Seven Sisters” and broke their monopoly. He was dealt with by planting explosives in his plane.

The US doesn’t have clean hands and we lack true statesmen with clout.

Cole was wrong on Libya and he’s wrong now. Anyway, what a shitty current-history professor this little machiavellian prince must be if he ignores realpolitik.

It helps if you know how these things work. The response follows a predictable pattern.

One of them is that the alignment with the fundamentalist Sunnis with no thought to blowback, another is covertly arming and training the opposition aka, a dirty war
Control of the media, This revolutions is being called the Al Jazeera Revolution because of the biased coverage.
One reporter has just quit because of it.
It’s not only the alawites in Syria that are in danger from the Sunnis, it’s the christians too.

“Not wanting to commit mass murder of innocent civilians for a crass, fascistic, geo-political game that may very well start World War Three means I love Assad and hate Jews?” Prove that its a game. You wouldn’t be running mouth that way if Assad’s goons were killing your family. Israel has NOTHING to do with the rising there, but if they did so what ? They’re officially at WAR with Syria, do you know that? I’m not Hasbara, but I’d be proud to be if I were an Israeli. So FU!

FU U 2!

Yea IM bigoted that’s why my wife is Lebanese dip shit. STFU you don’t have clue.

unpack this mess:

Emo: The US, Israel and Saudis armed these groups that started the civil war, for the purpose of destabilizing Syria in the run-up to attacking Iran. You don’t think they got their sniper rifles and C4 at the Homs Wal-Mart, did you?

So, that means you think Assad is some benign Dictator and that its ok for him to use his army to kill thousands?
Its ok for Hezbollah to rain missiles down on Israel then?
Sure. Because you’d like to see all the JEWS leave the area and if that means in a coffin so be it, right?
Its always it seems Israel’s fault when these awful places blow up isn’t it? Grow up already this is the fucking ME and Iran and Syria are nasty as places and no friends of anybody.
You love ASSAD so much go fight for him and his Iranian pals then. This is in fact an inter-Arab thing. The Sunni majority in Syria has had enough of Assad and the Alawite tribe ruling them by fiat and are rising against them. Its not some prelude to a War with Iran. But then everything is a prelude to something isn’t it?

Here there be dragons. Giant straw dragons. This could be a prelude to your future employment opportunities in late-late night television fortune telling*, don’t put much hope in something that requires logic or discernment.

(*”For Amusement Purposes Only”)

It is no coincidence that the leadership of al Jazeera changed last year. After its then head was exposed by Wikileaks to have close ties to the US, a member of the Qatar royal family was put in charge of the network. No coincidence because of Qatar’s ties to the US and to the Gulf Cooperation Council, which includes Bahrain.

As best I can tell from a variety of sources (1) there was a sizable peaceful protest movement among folks with legitimate grievances against the Assad regime; (2) their initial assumption was that they could influence reforms within the current government; (3) they were met with repression over a period of months; (4) internal and foreign government opportunists (and not just the US or a coalition headed by the US) began gamesmanship with the situation; (4) that hardened the response of the regime; (5) protest turned to insurrection as some soldiers defected and arms began being shipped into the country. (6) The regime escalated its reaction. (7) Western nations sought to pressure the regime as they had done Libya’s and so pursued sanctions and UN resolutions. (8) Iran declared support for Syria. (9) Saudi Arabia became concerned about Iran’s role in Syria and by extension Lebanon and began whatever action it is carrying out.

It is complex and complicated by the ethnic and religious and political party differences that were not present in Libya.

Intervention by any other nation would be disastrous for the Syrian people. Proxy war just as much. Most likely the outcome will be the suppression of the insurgency and strengthening and hardening of the Assad regime.

Syria looks to me to be the Belarus of the Arab Spring.

That’s about right. Its the result of militarizing all of the available tools that the state Dept would have to deescalate this situation, but they are on that PNAC list so this was inevitable. Spiriting arms to these rebels is a mistake.

I suspect much the same would happen here if Occupy or the TeaParty decided to insist that our corrupt leaders step down, and took up arms against them. Most of these other countries don’t jail for life, but the US does – 5% of the population and 25% of the worlds prisoners. It’s the reason why Americans are not going to revolt like this.

I’m not sure what the State Department could do in this situation to de-escalate it. The US really doesn’t have that much power over Syria as the results show. And the nature of spiriting arms into a country leaves ambiguous who is doing the supplying, which could even come from private neo-con groups internationally wanting to dump Assad.

Don’t go all romantic about the Assad regime. It’s pretty brutal.

Americans are not going to revolt like this because they assume that their votes actually count and that if they don’t protests will force changes. I suspect between now and November we are going to see a major test of that theory.

I don’t know that the PNAC list has caught up to reality. But there are indications that the last thing that Israel wants during their current land grab is instability in Syria.

Chris Floyd weighed in on Cole today. Looked at Cole’s house today; at least some commenters are pushing back.

Oh, sorry, I got lost in that ‘romantic’ feeling about the Assad Regime.. :)
De-escalation was never on the table. They were talking one way and shipping arms to Crete.
He is brutal and he’s a dictator, but that doesn’t make those the in SNC legitimate. My point is that the current government is better than what is currently on it’s way to power. They’ve had some defections in the leadership in the last few days too, I noticed.

Here’s a good piece:
Oppositon to the Syrian Opposition: Against the Syrian National Council.

[T]he Syrian regime has no right to stay in power, and this was true even before it began using violence to quell the uprising. And let us be clear; the Syrian regime is incapable of reforming itself.

It is rather foolish to wait for a group to ascend to power before criticizing it. There was no mystery as to the intentions and agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood or the Salafis or even the Khomeini movement, before their taking the reigns of power. Similarly, the adversaries of the Ba’ath Party began opposing it long before the former began conspiring to seize power by force. Today, it is imperative that an opposition to the Syrian National Council (SNC) begins (and to the power behind it and underneath it) before they get a chance to rule Syria…

By importing libyan, Iraqi fighters and arming the salafists the west/Al Sauds/Qatar has already overthrown the protestors. This is not democracy.

The opposition to the SNC can be predicated on several factors, primarily relating to matters of credibility, consistency, and honesty. The SNC has already lied to the Syrian people repeatedly. ..

1) The SNC started as a movement that strictly adhered to nonviolent struggle and now it has a military council to coordinate the violent overthrow of the regime by force (and this without in any way detracting from the right of the Syrian people—and all other Arab people—to overthrow it by any means necessary the regime under which they live and suffer). Worse, the SNC now wants violence to be done by Syrians and by whoever else (Israelis too?) interested in overthrowing the regime.

2) The SNC first categorically rejected any political preferences in the Lebanese political conflict. Burhan Ghalyun famously said: keep us out of your conflicts in Lebanon. Now, the SNC is a close ally of the March 14 Movement, and it has issued political statements in support of this Hariri movement.

The March 14 movement is, according to As’ad Abu Khalil (angryarab) full of Bin Ladinites who are our allies, just in case you think we really hated Bin Ladin.

3) The SNC said it strictly opposed foreign intervention while it now begs for foreign intervention from any side—preferably allies of the United States and Israel….

4) The SNC leadership said on a few occasions that the percentage of the Ikhwan in the SNC is no more than twenty percent. Yet, Ghalyun in several private meetings …complained about Ikhwan domination of the SNC and said that he would not agree to serve as another Mahmud Jibril.

5) .. The SNC adopted the Ba‘athist government’s position [on the Golan] before it even had a chance to establish its government. Moreover, the SNC went further and began an unprecedented (for Syrians that is) path of flirtation with Israel..[and lied about it]

6)The SNC claimed that it would not serve as a tool for outsiders and said that it will only answer to the Syrian people but it has now become a tool of Saudi and Qatari ruling dynasties, among others…

This violence has actually scared away the support for the overthrow by the minorities, and the radical sunnis have taken to threatening them for not fighting with them in this armed insurrection.
http://nirrosen.tumblr.com/post/18936412475/syrias-alawite-activists-stuck-in-the

He’ll delete all the comments that don’t agree with him. It’s his m.o.

Yep that’s pretty much it since the SNC meeting in Turkey early last fall.