Speaking or “targeted murder,” without due process, checks and balances or evidence? Sad to realize the “perception of fear,” in the absence of credible evidence, results in murder?

As much as I loathe racism and according to what has been reported the Big Z was acting unprovoked, I do not think you should have to turn your back and run when an assailant wishes to do you harm. The ‘stand your ground law’ is appropriate where you are actually being attacked, just like being able to wound or kill someone who is stealing or damaging your property even if they are not in your house. As always though these things are best left to the Police. But they cannot always be everywhere all the time.

And now there’s this:

In the final moments of his life, Trayvon Martin was being hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him, according to the teenage girl whose call logs show she was on the phone with the 17-year-old boy in the moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901–abc-news.html

Weren’t there two shots fired ?

Where’s his cell phone he was talking on while being stalked by his hunter ?

If as reported , he lay in the morgue for three days, didn’t his family contact police about their missing child ?

RIP Trayvon away from a world gone wild. Armed and dangerous with Skittles and the infamous black hand held cell phone.

Don’t worry, this guy is not going to get away with this crap. According to reports, he was told not to pursue by 911 dispatch, he provoked the entire incident. He pursued Martin, he killed him like he was hunting a possum. Even back woods redneck asshole State Attorneys can see through this lame ass story Z put up. It’s at least 2nd degree murder.

If the attacked becomes the attacker then his use of deadly force is reasonable as well ?

If Trayvon killed the watchman, after being attacked for carrying Skittles, should he have gone free also ?

This reminds me of my wife’s first case. She was assisting the defense in a murder trial in which the murdered man was on the phone with the recorder operating when he was shot. You could hear him shout, don’t shoot! I wonder what ‘s on that cell phone?

Uhhh… let me see if I can unwind what you are saying… If T had a handgun and shot Z? Yes, I would’ve shot Z between the eyes if he had chased me down for several blocks. Of course being a black boy in redneck backwater FL, I’d be sitting in Jail right now.

sounds to me like the government is already giving themselves a pass;

With all federal civil rights crimes, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person acted intentionally and with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids – the highest level of intent in criminal law. Negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws

dunno, if I were a betting man I would say they already made up their mind not to prosecute, time will tell

This law under which Zimmerman was sent home without investigation is nothing more than putting into legal language what has for centuries been practice in racist communities that having first defined African Americans and now Hispanics etc as inherently dangerous are given freedom to kill. The libertine legal rights of any citizen to carry and use lethal weapons is also nothing more than licensing vigilantism, Now they don’t need to wear the white sheets they once did.

The right is going to spin this as a black president and a black AG investigating a white hero defending his property. What about all of the black on white crime?

Rushbo will have a field day because it lets him off the hook for his anti-woman statements.

As much as I loathe racism and according to what has been reported the Big Z was acting unprovoked, I do not think you should have to turn your back and run when an assailant wishes to do you harm

cannot agree at all with your post

I don’t know too many people who would NOT run away when being hunted by someone they are afraid of and I have no clue who you think would not try running away, and as a matter of fact most people are taught to do just that, even in the trenches on a battle field I might add

I would bet my bottom dollar you would run away giving the same scenario

Those who just want to examine the tedious details of individual single cases are just enabling denial of the patterns of systemic injustice.

What needs to be addressed and investigated is the question of how often are death by violence of young black males not properly investigated in comparison of other victims?

It’s excellent news that a real investigation will finally take place in this case,and hopefully justice will be done, whatever it turns out that justice would be. But I must comment, with regret, that there was some real ugly stuff that went down on Pam Spaulding’s thread on this case over the weekend. Some were so eager to demonstrate their anti-racism bona fides that they actually asserted that the specific facts did not matter, and that anyone who wanted to be careful about the facts was probably a racist (paraphrasing, but accurately). As reported by the NYT today, the herd had some facts wrong, i.e., Zimmerman was NOT in his SUV when the confrontation occurred; the police believed it was ZIMMERMAN screaming for help on the 911 tape; Trayvon was currently on suspension from his school, so that we did not have the clear picture of an angelic victim vs, a demon aggressor that was being uncritically promoted. I could list several other factors where the herd was ASSUMING incorrectly, but the point is made, I think. Would I be naive to expect an apology from those who called me a “racist” and deliberately tried to make offensive remarks to me on that thread for caring about getting the facts right (Dr. Dick, Senator Government)? Probably. But I hope the community takes a lesson, we are supposed to be the clear thinkers in the political universe. When we show a willingness to be careless about the facts, we lose that moral advantage.

We’re on the same page with different type face.

I meant if he took the gun from his hunter and killed his hunter with his own gun.

As clarence would say ” a high tech lynching” without a rope.

Yeah, try to outrun a bullet. Hell, try to outrun an athlete. I cannot outrun someone who could chase me down because they are in better shape than me. Running will only delay the inevitable unless you happen to be a track star. The only reason I would run from an attacker is if I was defenseless. What’s the point? You will have to stand and fight at some point if someone is hell bent on doing hurting you. Might as well try it even hand to hand when you are fresh, not after being winded from running 100m dash.

Totally justified. Records would show whose gun it was. It would be a sticky wicket to prove you didn’t attack and steal the gun though.

Trayvon was currently on suspension

Excussssss me is that a mitigating factor in a racist society assassination ?

try to outrun a bullet?

or try to make it so the bullet has a hard time finding it’s target

this guy was being hunted by someone the victim thought he could not prevail against, you are saying this victim should have done something you imagine yourself doing even though that flies in the face of all advice given, sorry, I do not believe for one second you would not try to flee this confrontation no matter what you think you would do

TS, I have great respect for you, and have for many years, but you are out of balance on this issue. I attribute it to your gentleness, but clear thinking is more valuable here, with all respect. The law does not apply only to white vs. minority scenarios, and your antipathy to guns generally is subject to a goodly amount of reasoned criticism. Most importantly, when you say the specific facts don’t matter as much as the statistical patterns, you transform justice from an inividual matter to a group exercise, and that is contary to every foundational principle of Western legal thought. I hope you will reconsider. I single you out because you have made several comments of this flavor, and because I know many listen very carefully to your respected voice.

911 told him to stay in his car. The fact that he was in his car, which could be used as a self defense weapon in itself and that was the safest place he could have been, and got out to chase the boy down for no known reason (i.e. he wasn’t raping or mugging someone) puts him squarely in the cross hairs of the wrong side of the law no matter what Martin’s record was. This was no accident, it wasn’t negligence. He [Zimmerman] was there to WATCH not HUNT.

Right, he did try to flee. He felt defenseless and intimidated, as most sober people would when confronted by some dumb redneck who outweighs you by 100+ lbs. But the case proves my point. If he had stood his ground he might not of been shot and (apparently he put up a pretty good fight!) ended up having to fight for his life anyway. The boy was obviously in better shape than the fat fuck that had to resort to a 9mm to finish his vigilantism. If he hadn’t had the pistol it sounds like he [Zimmerman] would’ve got his ass kicked trying to play Dirty Harry.

I’m talking about this community’s behavior now. This community thought it very relevant to keep citing Zimmeramn’s arrest 7 years earlier for a “battery on an officer” charge that was dismissed, that was apparently just about him trying to keep a cop from arresting his friend. Equally irrelevant in this discussion, no? I’m trying to show the imbalance in OUR thinking and discussion, that’s all. Because our claim to clear, balanced, accurate analysis is our best claim to fame, and if we surrender that, then we surrender a lot.

Before the legalists in the audience start howling about the fact that Florida’s ‘Stand your ground’ law justifies this murder, I’d like to point out that according to the Bible, Jesus has another opinion;

Romans 3:20

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Part of the message that Jesus delivered was the fact that the law is intended to limit man’s inherent tendency to sin, but just following the rules of the law doesn’t make a man righteous.

The law tells you what you mustn’t do, but it doesn’t tell you what you’re allowed do.

Now don’t get me wrong here, I’m not pushing a religious agenda, I’m simply pointing out that the ‘good’ people of Florida have gone off the deep end and have passed a law contrary to the teachings of the God they so loudly proclaim to follow.

I mean we’re a nation built on Judea-Christian principles right?

The clueless Florida legislature passed a law ‘allowing’ a citizen to shoot another so long as they feel threatened, which is actually an abuse of the law as defined by our ‘Judeo-Christian’ principles.

That law was meant to pander to man’s worst impulse, the impulse to murder.

You can pass all the laws you like, but murder cannot be justified.

The results would rapidly point to the inevitable conclusion that there’s an ongoing genocide in this country.

you’re really out on a stretch trying to make your point

most people who try to get away from this kind of confrontation do far better then those who try to address the confrontation, and in this case, had he faced and confronted his provocateur, and been shot i am betting you would be first in line saying he should have tried to get out of the situation instead of instigating it

I myself who prides himself in self defensive skills, having been professionally trained, having been hired for my self defense skills have had it both ways, when i could get out of the situation I do it, when I can’t I face the consequences, I have faired FAR better getting out of the situation when that option presents itself, you can be assured

in point of fact, this is the FIRST thing my sensei taught and teaches his students, THE VERY first thing

and according to all people I know in defensive arts, it’s the first thing everyone to a man teaches

so there you have it, there is no excuse for what has happened, he SHOULD have tried to get away from the situation to give himself his best chance, as everyone is tought to do, inspite of what you say you “think” he should have done

This recalls the Schneider (Australian tourist) attack (San Diego beach:)
arbitrarily, naively, assumed g’y (Schneider is not that.)
The attackers ran to Aryan Nation country and were later,
IF MEMORY SERVES CORRECTLY (I DON’T KNOW THIS
FOR A FACT,) reportedly g’y.

DISCLAIMER: REGARDLESS OF THEIR CONVICTION STATUS,
I CANNOT ACTUALLY FIND FACTUAL PROOF
SCHNEIDER’S ATTACKERS PROVED UP BEING, LIKE VIRTUALLY ALL
ACTUAL MURDERS OF G’YS TO DATE SO FAR, G’Y THEMSELVES.
RECALL THIS CONFLATOR OF SCAPEGOATING WITH GOOD
MORALITY AND POLICY:
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-01-14/entertainment/30008786_1_photos-g-string-gun-culture

On a perfect scale, the more needing to assail g’ys, the likelier
g’y.

I suspect this guard was good with the idea this pedestrian looked like
someone lacking a birthright matching his own, and this

http://awurl.com/u4j2oMcpG#first_awesome_highlight

was insufficient.

If you’ve trouble accessing that (filters are variously unhappy
with varying degrees of opacity,) then here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Fu%C4%8D%C3%ADk_%28journalist%29
at :

“It so happens that killing a man is not the greatest evil that one can do that man. The Nazis were specialists, not only in murder and physical torture, but also in man’s degradation and
debasement, in the extermination of his hope,
his attachment to life and his faculty of reasoning.”

That’s because the originators of demonization for associating with the
demonized originally wanted to divide and conquer and clear the
path for self-serving demagoguery.

Imagine hypothetically: a Governor demonizes immigrants, perfectly legally
present ones, but also viciously abusive of persons unable or not needing to mstrbt their self-adulation and food fortune on others, and though desired economically scapegoated for their having been shafted by their own dividers and frauds, garners the support of a whole gaggle of mollifiers and ego freaks statewide.
Then, in fact being a puppet for a billionaire, sells out a state’s water claims in support of a boss, who, for all one might imagine, is an out-of-state Brewer.

I use “g’y” to thwart web filters, considering myself well-intentioned and
de-fanged as to all by persons of the same inclination; references to nasty
g’ys is to not simply demonstrate the more vicious toward g’y, or the more
self-divided from them, the likelier being the not-self-aware g’y gene
carrier: the logical exteme proving this is the reality, namely, virtually all
murderers of g’ys have proven g’y.

They process self-created by inducing the g’y gene to hide w/in
hetero marriage.
Hitler was famously feminine. JFK’s killers were substantially g’y fascists.
These types, and low and behold perhaps THESE people were foretold after
all, seem perhaps to still be operative in our time.

The opposite of divide and conquer: royalty assuming names as needed
regionally.

The East: just emporers.

Though the world has been about judging for control and arrogance and the
rejecting of that, under numerous labels, it’s that: royals taking names per need
regionally, vs. just emporers, that really proves a gradient with math value.

But, I’ve theorized the East is identical but for that twist of judging for
control: the control freak system. The system of Government by Transference.

Transferring fear intended originally for oneself,
until your unsupecting citizens
are afraid to stand next to each other, or fight in the streets instead of
studying math, garnering the support of all who need to mollify, that
need amplified by the process, and garnering the support of those who need to mstrbt their egos on everyone else, their arrogance also a product of this historical accident, defines the world’s divisions, the system of
figureheads substituting for warriors and bankers leading asymmetrically.

END OF MESSAGE OF BROAD INTEREST.
BEGINNING OF IDEAS OF FREAKASAURUS INTEREST.
(But I don’t spam. FDL is a large part of my own sustenance surfing the web.)
Though personally traditionally atheist, now seeing how this
moved history: Hitler was famously feminine, JFK’s killers substantially
g’y fascists, and because of the following, I happen to be curious as to a
new possibility, wherein

science proves morality and history
morality proves science and history
history proves morality and science

along with a personal view that people have been seen in “real time”
through time, that being a measure of distance, and so, our history and morality can possibly quite surprisingly revolutionize our science and technology.

See that’s the fucking point I’m trying to make. ‘Stand Your Ground’ does not equal observing someone not doing anything illegal, getting out of your vehicle, starting an altercation, chasing someone down, starting another (seemingly) physical altercation, and then shooting someone. That is vigilantism and trust me, FL SAO will file murder charges on this. The Stand Your Ground argument is a straw man. It’s weak, and particularly so because that is the BEST the stupid fuck could come up with. Even the total lack of professionalism of the SPD will not escape the scrutiny of the SAO. They are organized in to circuits, which comprise multiple counties, not some little pisswater village.

I have a good friend who was a medic in Viet Nam, he told me a lot of people got killed in bar-fights, drunken brawls and over women, gambling and such.

He explained to me that one of the difficult things that soldiers have to learn was that even when carrying a gun, you must take an ass-kicking if you deserve it.

The guy who did this shooting was an ignorant, lawless person.

I hear you and have heard to many of these cases explained away therefore I’m a skeptic when it comes to the official explanation.

I call um like I see them through my life’s experience, this was another guilty before an independent examination of the facts, guilty of being black, as if that’s enough.

I totally agree, the dumb shit bit off more than he could chew. I suspect his pride got in the way. He wouldn’t have been able to look at him self in the morning getting his ass kicked by a 17 year old 140lb black boy!

Let’s contrast Florida’s ‘Stand your ground’ law with the law in Japan;

In Japan you are not allowed to use disproportional force to defend yourself, even within your own home.

In Japan, if a man attacks you with a knife, you may defend yourself with your hands, or a knife, but you may not respond with a firearm.

And I am disturbed by your behavior as a major participant in distraction from the civil rights issue. It is that aspect that demands examination.

I have no idea how valid some of the claims are in this particular case. But that is not the more important issue. The important issue is why it was not properly investigated by the police. You have to be pretty unaware to not suspect the victim being black has something to do with it.

In fact I am perplexed as to why not only you but a number of commentators are so anxious to ignore and deny why this case rises above the ordinary street crime and demands public and federal government investigation.

If we had taken your approach with Lilly Ledbetter or going further back to school segregation by having to prove each child in isolation was being discriminated against we would still be under Jim Crow and Lilly would not be voting, much less working for fair wages..

Ugh. Please read and understand what I am saying. What’s the worse thing you do when an unfriendly dog confronts you? Turn your back and run. It triggers their instincts to chase. Neanderthal’s like Zimmerman aren’t much different. I’m not saying you should rip off your shirt and start pounding your chest, but if you are just walking down the street with a bag of candy, WTH?

He ran, he still got shot. If he would have said “Hey fuck face, I live right over there and all I’m doing is walking down the fucking road with a bag of candy in my hand.” Zimmerman might still have shot him, because he is an idiot. I am saying running did not help. And if I was Marin and had had a gun, Z would be in the morgue not me, but I would be in jail without bond. There is not one fucking thing wrong with standing your ground and defending yourself, even though it may not always be the best decision.

Precisely, this is what’s going to fuck Zimmerman, disproportionate force. It’s the law in FL, you cannot just hunt someone down shoot them and then claim self defense.

That is exactly what the local police were going to let happen. Also the law they cite comes close to doing that in that it is almost explicit in placing the burden on the police to prove a negative — ie that the killer was NOT afraid.

we are not going to disagree, first, your own dog analagy, I have never had a fight with a vicous dog and won, I did confront one and he got the best of me with a bite I still have the scar, had I had a weapon of course I would have gotten the best of him

I have run from a few of them and have not gotten bitten by any dogs I have gotten out of their way, as a matter of fact, I ran till I found a weapon or ran to sanctuary where the dog could not follow

this victim SHOULD have run away and we would be talking about why he DIDN’T if the same thing happened and he didn’t try to get out of the situation

a result FAR more likely had he stood his ground

as far as I am concerned your point is really misplaced and quite frankly, I believe irresponsible

so you and I are going to disagree, see you on another thread

I think the biggest key in the case against Zimmerman will be his disregard for the advice of the dispatcher. He was told units were en route and that he should stay in his vehicle.

After that he made a conscious decision to take the law into his own hands.

It is the more liberal self-defense laws, but still this isn’t going to pass the smell test. The local police forgot, “oh yeah, there is this thing called the Internet, and when it breaks out, oh, so we CAN’T cover this up? SHIT!”

Look, there was a case in FL where a guy wiped out on his liter bike killing his willing passenger, his girlfriend, instantly when she whacked her un-helmeted head. He was probably flying. But that strikes manslaughter to me. Guess what the State Attorneys tried to push? MURDER, 1st DEGREE! They lost, thankfully.

But I guarantee this guy will get charged, in that light.

Yep yep yep, I already posted as much twice.

Yes, yes you did. And I agree with your self defense arguments as well. I understand what Perris is saying above, but my dojo taught that the best defense is a good offense.

Also, too – google/youtube the ’21 foot rule’.

Can I use ixquick.com instead? lol

Interesting. I can’t speak to willing or ignorant incompetent prosecutors –eg another would be Casey Anthony in individual cases or as a systemic problem in Florida in its own right,. And I don’t have a lot to think or say about the crazy gun laws which I think are symptomatic of the embedded racism and racist motivation behind how the country is run, especially in the deep south. I do plead guilty to my concern being on that.

In fact looking at the discussions here it seems most of us share similar liberal values but for some reason in this case there is a divide as two what is being focused on and we seem to be talking past each other.

Here’s the recording on which Zimmerman calls Trayon Martin a “fuckin” coon!”:

http://axiomamnesia.com/2012/03/20/george-zimmerman-calls-trayvon-martin-fcking-coon-911-call-audio/

Come on, it’s all relevant…the specific facts here, but also the familiar pattern of jail over population for Blacks, cruelty, lack of opportunity. That cannot be left out of the current Fla tragedy.

That Zimmerman asshole should hope he is put in jail cause he won’t last a year if is allowed free and clear back on the streets. Live by the sword………

Am not into violence in any way shape or form but if someone killed one of my sons in cold blood on a city street simply because of the color of their skin and then that person was allowed to keep his freedom I can guarantee you that that person would not be long for this world and I would not care if it meant the end of me also. Would do all I could do to meet him on the street, claim I saw his gun sticking out of his pants, say I was threatened by him (thats his defense isn’t it?), and put him down like the diseased animal he is. Zimmerman needs protective custody (ie jail) for the rest of his miserable lowlife existence.

I see your point. I don’t agree with the so-called ‘Right’ on very many things, but I think the responsible ownership of firearms has been under siege from the so-called ‘Left’ for quite some time. These are difficult issues to reconcile in any light.

Consider if I killed someone legitimately defending myself and end up rotting in prison because I didn’t want my wife raped? FL just leans on the side of those who claim defense rather than those who end up dead.

It’s one of those even number things, there is no precise middle ground and no way to insure that justice will always be done. But to reiterate, in this case, the self-defense argument isn’t going to pass the smell test.

“patterns of systemic injustice.”

Falls right in line with extra judicial killings?

Assertion made! Self defense, whack…. your gone!

Zimmerman did what we, as a nation did, do? You reap what you sow?

And I think the right to carry arms has been distorted beyond anything the Constition intended. It’s so that carry “heat” is the equivalent of having a purse for women. How often is that really necessary or appropriate? It is not those who want limits on the right to carry who are dangerous.

“But to reiterate, in this case, the self-defense argument isn’t going to pass the smell test.”

I can think of other scenarios where the self defense argument, preemptive strike did not pass the smell test, but that did not stop US?

David: I don’t ask much, but can we quit posting that picture of Holder. It really pisses me off. Can you use some other photo? Maybe, the southbound side of a northbound horse.

As soon as you design a test that can prove who is and is not dangerous, please let me know. When that day comes we will finally have definitions for ‘normal’, ‘perfection’, and maybe even ‘intelligence’.

Yeah, that goes beyond self-defense by quite a measure. It is the point of fierce criticism in US foreign policy. ‘Preemptive’ strikes are clearly a violation of international law. It’s more the equivalent of executing 4 year-olds for stealing cookies because they may someday rob a bank. The way things are going here, I may see that day in my lifetime.

You are clearly too gentle a soul newcarguy.

The 911 dispatcher also agreed that he could NOT stay in his car and the patrol officer would be told to call him to find out where he was when the officer arrived on-scene. And, the dispatcher would not constitute a lawful order from an officer in any event. The legal question is only about what happened when they actually confronted each other, and that is still pretty much a mystery, as of this moment. I am just wishing people would be more careful about getting the facts right. I specialized in doing forensic fact pattern analyses when I practiced law, and nobody here has done even 10% of the intensive study and verification work that I would have done before attaching my professional cred to a conclusion. I also had a deep interest in self-defense issues, specifically, and they are among the most difficult and fact-specific types of cases of all those in criminal law. If I was just placing a bet, I would say Zimmerman was in the wrong. But we owe a more careful analysis of the matter before we declare that someone is a murderer.

You are a really smart guy. I know that for a fact. Why would you introduce religion, as though that should control somehow. You don’t think the coversation on this topic is already emotional and imprecise enough?

True enough. facts before assumptions. But the picture being painted so far…. definitely doesn’t look good for The Big Z.

And I didn’t mean to imply the dispatcher would be a lawful order, but it goes to intent. The kid was just walking around in the rain. Big fucking deal. Why couldn’t he have waited for the cops? Even if he really thought the kid was high on drugs, he wasn’t doing anything but walking, that much we know. If super douche had just observed he wouldn’t be asshole deep in shit and that kid would still be alive.

Yep. It seems it is a core or at least pervasive American value. It certainly is what the forces driving the passion for personal ownership of lethal weapons.

All that really matters, from a clean analytical perspective (which I unashamedly declare my personal allegiance to) is what happened when they were face to face and contact was initiated, and immediately thereafter. And any honest person should feel constrained to admit that things could have gone either way in that critical timeframe, in light of the known facts at this time. Hoefully, a good investigation may cleaar up some of the factual ambiguities. I hope so. But I’d like to see more thinking here and less yelling. Yelling does not impress me.

Personally I see the fact that injustice happens is a weak defense of laws encouraging the personal ownership and carrying of lethal weapons for anybody who manages to stay out of insane asylums.

Nothing wrong with being a skeptic, on either side of the argument. I think skepticism is good, until you actually KNOW. And when I actually know, I want to see the bad guy punished, harshly, regardless of race or any other personal identity characteristic.

You are 100% wrong as to my position about investigation. I always want to see a competent and thorough investigation of any serious crime. Why would I not? And since there are obvious issues about the investigation that took place here, I 100% welcome a federal investigation. And since we all seem to agree there has been no good investigatiomn so far, I am really quite confused as to all the certainty I see getting expressed here. THAT IS MY ONLY POINT!!!!!!!!!!

Guess we better hide all the baseball bats and paring knives too then? Better cut off all our hands and feet to because I might be prone to strangle someone to death or kick someones skull into a pulp. Ought oh. We are straying into classic gun control debate!

If someone wants to kill someone it hardly requires a firearm. Ask Nicole Brown-Simpson. If OJ had used a gun he’d be rotting in a California prison not a Nevada prison. Guns are just more emotional to people than axes and knives. Guns may make it more ‘convenient’ to kill per se, but I highly doubt the murder rate is going to drop dramatically if we took every gun on the planet and dropped them to the bottom of the sea.

It makes a good song though, ;)

I don’t need this or this. Just this ashtray… And this paddle game.

Are you actually saying the police were wrong if they tried to accord their actions with the actual law of their state? Jeez, I give up. This case is all about the law, and I hear most of you saying, in one way or another, “we don’t need no stinking law.” I cannot give all of you the ccomplete legal education you need to stop seeming so foolish. But notice, if you will, that not a single LAWYER has appeared on any of these threads to say I am not right in what I’m offering. We have plenty of lawyers here. THIMK!!!!!

As I said I think we are talking past each other more than anything else. I think the certainty, perhaps poorly articulated, is that the patterns of ignoring violent deaths of young black males makes one suspicious of motivation and practices by the police. I am not one that has automatically assumed Zimmerman to be the predator, but I have to say with all that is being made public now it is hard to not make that assumption.

This case does have echos of Emmett Till for me. A mother’s outrage at his murder really set the fires of the Civil Rights movement in the south.

Roy Bryant and J.W. Milam were acquitted for the murder of Emmett Till. An all white-male jury took less than an hour to find the two men not guilty. Had they not taken a soda break, their deliberations would not have taken an hour, said one of the jurors. In spite of the fact that the two admitted taking Emmett Till from his great-uncle’s cabin, the two men were later acquitted of kidnapping charges

Link to source.

Hey! I play one on TV! X(

I own 3 firearms and shoot regularly. I wouldn’t want to give them up. But I must disagree with you here.

The vast majority of homicides in this country are committed with firearms. Countries that don’t have firearms have lower homicide rates. These are facts.

To tie in the tragic massacre in Afghanistan 2 weeks ago, do you think Staff Sergeant Bales could have killed 16 people with a knife or his bare hands without being stopped or overwhelmed at some point?

Guns change everything when it comes to inflicting violence on a person. They make it far easier to kill. There availability in our country is a problem, but not one I have a reasonable solution for, so I stay out of the gun control debate.

All that matters is what happened when they were face to face? Really? How bout the fact that Zimmerman was armed, Trayvon was unarmed, Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon and Trayvon knew it. I think those think those details matter and provide context. I think any honest person that knows the facts that arent in dispute up to this point would probably conclude that a 28 year old man carrying a gun and stalking a 17 year old kid who was carrying ice tea and skittles would probably be at fault here… but I could be wrong…. Zimmerman could have been deathly alergic to skittles and affraid for his life…. WE NEED MORE FACTS!

Does the law call for the Police to NOT try to make a determination of the validity of the claims of the shooter? If that is the case then perhaps there is no reason to have any laws against or penalties for killing another person.

“It is the point of fierce criticism in US foreign policy. ‘Preemptive’ strikes are clearly a violation of international law.”

It was the point of the late Senator Byrd! From a defensive posture to a preemptive mode, where facts may not be what they appear, Mr. Zimmerman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoFbc3yOAo0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie63x2it8MY&feature=related

T. Martin’s murder is horrible. No justice for Trayvon Martin today…

Guns like soldiers exist for one reason. To kill.

Everything is relevant, but not everything is controlling legally, and I am 100% with you as to your general perspective about race problems in this country. Rather militant about that stuff, actually. I’m trying to make a subtle point that is getting lost in the blizzard of emotional outrage. normanb’s comment above yours is a great example-that is the first recording where Zimmerman can be heard saying, “fucking coons.” That alone does not determine the self-defense issue, but it could qualify a hate crimes prosecution. Point is, there will be more clarity on the facts forthcoming, we don’t know everything yet. I can wait until I know what I’m talking about before I declare a man to be a murderer, especially in a state where they execute people for that.

Obviously the jury hasn’t even been selected yet. I’m basing my assumptions on what I have read about the 911 tapes and witness quotes. I certainly to want to pull a Nancy Grace and declare the asshole guilty before he’s even been formally charged.

If Z has a story to tell, I am sure he’s in Shut The Fuck Up mode at this point.

Based on what is known, I am thinking this idiot acted totally irrationally and perhaps with malice. I could be wrong of course (it happens occasionally ;0 ), and Skittles certainly can be dangerous if you walk on them on a slick floor.

I understand that our discussion is going to be emotional and imprecise.

It’s going to be emotional and imprecise for many reasons, and one of the most powerful of those reasons is based in the fact that a large number of people in this country think that the law is on Zimmerman’s side, that he is justified in his actions because Florida passed a law that specifically says so.

Many of those people who believe Florida’s Stand Your Ground law is righteous, are also Bible-thumping fundies whose selective reading of their Bible is used to justify all sorts of ignorant beliefs and behaviors.

More and evidence piles up every day that the fundies see the world in stark us against them terms, and in their imaginations it’s God-fearing Christians against godless heathens in a battle to the death.

All this is not a coincidence, and it’s all bullshit.

We’ve been this way before.

The right has encouraged a murderous mood in its followers and this law will result in more murder, if not clearly understood and fought until repealed.

My intent is to oppose right-wing Christian fundamentalist BS with the clear teachings of their own religion in order to leave no excuse for murderous action or intent.

and Skittles certainly can be dangerous if you walk on them on a slick floor.

You must not be fat like me. When I do that they just smush.

Carrying Skittles while black — a very serious offense.

I’m an Atheist, and I totally agree with the law. If I have a credible reason to believe someone is going to harm me, I feel completely justified have a legal right to use lethal force.

At this point I see nothing to tell me that Douche-bagger-mann had any reason to think there was ANY credible threat to his life, body, or property. That’s going to hang him, unless some new evidence comes to light to indicate otherwise.

The law in question was not intended to promote vigilantism. Many people were afraid it would and unfortunately it appears their fears were not unfounded.

Agree with everything you said there. But really, you have to ask, “at what exact moment did Zimmerman’s behavior become illegal?” It was legal for him to follow what he thought was a “suspicious character.” I did that once in Manhattan and wound up saving a nursing student from a strong-arm robbery. Legality is not lost until there is a confrontation and contact. We don’t know anything about what went down when that happened. I do know I’m a big guy, and I’ve seen lots of little guys who could kill me with their bare hands, rather effortlessly. So, I’d like to know some more before I lynch somebody.

This has become a cultural event. Your extremely parochial view is ignoring that. IOW Rome is burning while some are obsessed with the fiddling.

The Emmett Till prosecution and trial was all done within the parameters of the law.. Your approach would have done as had been done in the deep south for generations, just said “that is that, the requirements of the law have been fulfilled.”

The facts of the Till case are way different. Sloppy analogies don’t help. Of course you are right about the history, and nobody deplores it more than me. Seriously, TS. But we can’t correct that history by just reflexively leaning the other way and saying that, therefore, nobody ever has the right to kill a black man in self-defense, can we? Then we are just committing a different kind of atrocity, aren’t we? I think so.

I will say this, it is curious to me how they ended up fighting in the back yard of some neighboring house. I can only guess, but I suspect Z tried to accost M after Z told M to stop, like he had ANY authority to do so. M already freaked about being stalked, which he allegedly reported to his friend moments earlier, no doubt used physical defense when accosted.

Now the question is in my mind, where was Z when he shot M. Where was M? On the ground pleading for his life, or trying to grab a tire iron that happened to be laying around? Was M shot in the front or the back? Was it a tragic comedy of errors where both people think there is a criminal a foot and they both do what came natural? Why did Z try to accost M?

I agree it is easy to get emotional at first blush and make too many assumptions. Hopefully a good forensic examination will clear up some of these details. I still stand by my guess that Z is about to be in some serious shit though, it ain’t looking good for him in my view.

Now you are touching on something illuminating. This case represents the intersection of three major emotional issues for progressives. Race, gun-control, and self-defense law. Each one alone is difficult to discuss rationally, but all three together, no chance.

It’s living history. It lives today. I really think you are as too many good liberals are in denial that it does live today. The analogy is very apt. That case would never have been investigated, much less ended in charges had the parents not protested. And the good people would have said. The law was fulfilled.

Counter-hypothetical: What if Trayvon did not see Zimmerman’s gun, but got pissed that someone had the nerve to follow him, stopped and confronted Zimmerman, and was thoroughly kicking his ass when Zimmerman took his gun out? Completely different picture then, under the law, right? For all any of us know so far, that is exactly what happened. It’s the difference between knowing, and stereotyping, isn’t it, that we are arguing about here?

LOL, no, I’m not a lot heavier than that boy, so I can understand how freaked I would be if I had someone stalk me that was 280lbs. If he had took a start towards me he’d probably be shitting out his larynx about now.

Moderator Alert: I am going to say it anyway. :-)

Stop that crap implying common sense, the capacity for abstraction informed by emotion is irrational.

You mean RACISM no?

There should be a real investigation. But the nature of this case, any one-survivor, no-witness case, is that there still may not be enough evidence to override Zmmerman’s self-defense claim. Fla law is one extreme of self-defense law, I grew up and practiced in NY, which is the other extreme. It really matters how each state writes and interprets its own law. Personally, I think Florida, AND GEORGIA, where we are under basically the same law, is TOO lenient.

EXACTLY RIGHT RC.

Racism is obviously a factor in this case. Concealed-carry and firearms access are the reason the case exists, and the ‘stand your ground’ law in Fla is the reason Z walked from the scene. All issues that are incredibly emotionally charged because guns, racial discrimination, and self-defense all result in irreversible damage to human beings. At the core of all of our progressive ideology is a love for human beings, so this particular case touches a LOT of nerves.

Our hearts are ceratinly in the same place, amigo. But you are covering a lot more ground than I am trying to here, and I have my hands full already on the narrow ground where I am standing lol.

the only person who did any stereotyping that we know of for sure is the killer.

What we do know is that Zimmerman followed and unarmed teenager while carrying a gun, we know Zimmerman though he looked suspicious and drugged out. We know that Trayvon knew he was being followed. We know that Trayvon was unarmed

The undisputed facts are that one person was walking along minding his own business, while the person who would end up killing him was stalking him because he looked suspicious.

Well, I have a commitment to the rule of law and I can’t abandon that to participate in a cultural event, even if my friends want to do so. Lynching was also a culural event, IIRC.

Thank you, sir. That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to get at. I hope everyone will read your comment as many times as necessary until the obvious wisdom of it sinks in.

Zimmerman called 911, followed, shot and killed and unarmed 17 year old, not engaged in any illegal activity, in or near a gated community. Zimmerman is bigger. The dead 17 year old had no gun. Removing “stand your ground,” from the equation, this looks like “preemptive murder” predicated on racial profiling, by an untrained whack-job, who got everything wrong. Including his pathetically lame “justification” to terminate someone’s life?

And a lot of good people for generations chose to not attend to such “cultural events” as lynchings not investigated, or perpetrators not charged or if so acquitted.

Pardon me for believing FDL was all about culture and progressive liberal values and striving for justice.

WHY THE HELL would you think I deny the history? That is ridiculously unfair to say, TS. Failure to investigate is one thing, the law is another. Till’s death was not legal, investigated or not. Investigation is necessary in every case.

You and a lot of, other good folks, are I think in denial of the pervasive racism of the present.

Yes, we are conceerned about racism, not race. Personally, I can remember being eight years old, and becoming aware that some whites did not like blacks, and thinking that a white dog would NEVER be so stupid as to dislike a black dog just for having a different color. And that has been my attitude on the matter for the ensuing half-century.

Absolutely, and I understand that. But, at some point, clarity of thought must triumph over raw emotion.

Certainly Zimmerman did some stereotyping. And so is every single person deciding this case on the basis of history. Think about it.

Let’s not be too narrow minded now. Some black people don’t like white people either. Let’s not stop there either. I’m not sure how many races exactly exist, but there must be dozens.

I’ll personally sniff anyone’s butt first to see if they have the right set of pheromones doesn’t mean we will get along, but it will have nothing to do with what color hair they have.

I know I don’t like wanna-be rent-a-cop idiots going around shooting people to death because they look suspicious. I sure as hell glad that fuck wad will not be on any police force though.

Couldn’t the dumb fuck at least have just maimed him? Hard to fight too much with a knee cap shot up.

You keep saying that, and I keep saying you are wrong. Who knows better what goes on in my head? We are about values here, and also about reason (I thought). I won’t give up on reason. Sorry.

I’m an Atheist, and I totally agree with the law. If I have a credible reason to believe someone is going to harm me, I feel completely justified have a legal right to use lethal force.

I hope you never have to stand in front of a judge and explain your thought processes as concerns using lethal force.

Carrying a gun changes a lot of things that a person doesn’t think about until either it’s too late for thinking, or one’s thinking machinery just ain’t working as well as one would like.

If things are as they seem at the momment, George Zimmerman is going to have to face the fact that he’s a murderer.

Depending on how honest he is it may take a while, but prison is the place that they send people who are confused about these issues.

There’s a lot of people in prison who took years to understand that they were indeed guilty of murder.

You know what? Most members of most groups disappoint me. I look for the good people in every group, and know I will find some. I don’t actually do a lot of butt-sniffing, though . . . ;-)

Yeah, I try to avoid law enforcement where ever possible, kind of like hornets.

And I certainly wouldn’t be brandishing a weapon without the need and full intent of using it.

I would try to avoid that position entirely and would sick the police on any would be perpetrators if that were possible.

If someone is in my house, or trying to rob me, lurking suspiciously on my property with clearly suspicious intent, and police could not arrive quickly enough I have no compunction about giving them the message that it was a very bad idea.

Certainly Zimmerman did some stereotyping. And so is every single person deciding this case on the basis of history. Think about it.

yeah, but only Zimmerman followed, confronted, and killed someone… I’m assuming of course.

Those facts and the disproportionate use of force is what is going to send this guy to the penitentiary too… I’m assuming of course.

Don’t be prejudiced, try it you might like it!

Now you are touching on something illuminating. This case represents the intersection of three major emotional issues for progressives. Race, gun-control, and self-defense law. Each one alone is difficult to discuss rationally, but all three together, no chance.

That sounds like stereotyping to me…. we wouldn’t wanna do that now would we.

Did I say I never tried it lol?

You’re trying to be cute, but you are not succeeding. Stop. You know the point I made in each comment is correct as I made it. Don’t play context games that distort the plain truth, OK?

Final comments — gratefully I am sure :-) Both this discussion the earlier one and this one are disappointing. Not because of the passion and passing disagreements between folks who respect each other but for the lack of something else.

A personal disappointment, it lies in the nature of the fragmentation of so many concentrating on the isolated particulars while ignoring much less motivating action on the greater tragedy of our life in the country. This feels to me to be a representation of the debilitating fragmentation of our culture. We seem to be becoming less and less able to understand or experience events and our lives in the context of others. We complain appropriately of injustices but so often have found it impossible to form movements sufficiently cohesive to be effective. (Hopefully the Occupy movements represent a change in direction.)

We don’t know how to connect.

I hate to make the association but it does remind me of descriptions of cultures in the final throes of death and decay falling into meaningless obsessive rituals. Such as Easter Island or the Mayans etc.

There is a particular quality of rationality and reason that is lost when the connection with other lives is lost.

I agree, and it appears we can remove the

“stand your ground,” from the equation

. Apparently, the victim was on the phone literally while he was being hunted down. ABC news (Sorry, I lost the link) posted a discussion with a girl claiming she was on the pohyone with Trayvon as he was trying to hide for his life, scared. Apparently she even advised him to run away, but he didn’t. So, no stand your ground self defence here. I hope Zimmerman is charged with first degree murder.

As a white male living in Central Texas, it is oh so hard for me to believe race didn’t play a role here – I’ve seen Zimmerman’s type. They are all over this state.

so don’t point out when you’re being a hypocrite…. got it.

hope that wasn’t too cute.

Well, I am already breaking my vow. (sigh) All of this information could have been collected by the police a month ago. It was not.

Nah, we are just getting started killing ourselves. We got like 329,000,000 or so people to get through.

I’m sure we can find something to squabble over more significant than skin color though.

Oh it takes awhile, less this time because we are killing the earth also. But I really was addressing only the culture in the US. We already can justifiably be labeled as a rogue aggressor nation and operationally we are barely governable. There are other groups not as afflicted.

I’ll just ask if any of you know how horrid it is to be called a racist when you’ve lived your life as a testament to social justice for all, ending racist laws and practices, and…tra la la?

I’ve been called that name by fellow bloggers at other sites just for disagreeing with a black diarist or commenter, or even for saying that my black son used to take the part of the South in computer games about the Civil War. For crying in a bucket, people. Realitychecker has gone to great lengths to appeal to you about matters of law, and not given you his long history in these areas; hearing them might make you blush in shame as you recounted your words.

This all puts me a bit in mind of a diarist at the reader diaries who wrote a stellar piece about bogus mass arrests at Occupy Tucson in which he mistakenly said that those arrested hadn’t been read their Miranda Rights, apparently having forgotten recent SCOTUS severe limitations to them.

Those changes were pointed out to him, and he pushed back hard, maybe even wildly, against those comments, and was livid that to his mind, they seemed to approve of the curtailment of those long-existing rights, rather than just being the messengers of the facts.

There doesn’t seem to be a whole hell of a lotta space between that…and this thread, IMO.

And I hope that all of you here who are concerned about institutional and national racism are fighting for the Obama administration to address minority poverty, far higher than average unemployment, very high incarceration rates of African Americans and First Americans, and lack of access to good public education as Arne, et.al., embrace corporate charter schools and standardized testing as key to teacher retention.

That is all. Peace to all of you,

wd

Yup and yup!

I think it is a reasonable hypothesis that those who want to carry, think it some inalienable right, are likely more dangerous than those who don’t…See Dick Cheney.

I am in general agreement with that, TS, and if we were having a seminar on the history and the ongoing racism alone, you and I would find little to disagree about. If we are discussing this specific case, then it should be about this specific case. Maybe we are all confused about whether we are in Column A or Column B? I hope that is the explanation. You still have my respect and affection.

Wendy. I hope you saw my late post to you Sunday. http://pamshouseblend.firedoglake.com/2012/03/18/trayvon-martin-gunned-down-for-carrying-skittles-while-black/#comment-170963

LOL Well the problem is I am discussing “ongoing racism” and you are “discussing this specific case,” We ain’t connecting. Let’s connect Bro.

Now you’ve chosen to cross the line into moronhood. Anybody who can read the English language can immediately look and see the kind of linguistic game you were trying to play. God save us all if the new standard for writing comments is that we must never leave any room at all for those who want to misunderstand to say they have found a basis for misunderstanding. I guess you are denying that progressives care about the issues I mentioned? Talking Stick was just lecturing me for not letting my emotion rule. So, who’s right?

We need each other. You bring the linear logic. I’ll bring the emotion. (smiles)

I don’t think any reasonable person can disagree about the history and the ongoing racism, which is why I have focused on the other part that I think is getting a poor treatment. Does that connect us? ((TS))

But he is obviously mentally deranged! ;)

Now you’ve chosen to cross the line into moronhood. Anybody who can read the English language can immediately look and see the kind of linguistic game you were trying to play. God save us all if the new standard for writing comments is that we must never leave any room at all for those who want to misunderstand to say they have found a basis for misunderstanding. I guess you are denying that progressives care about the issues I mentioned? Talking Stick was just lecturing me for not letting my emotion rule. So, who’s right?

1.The only “linguistic game” I’m playin is the one that involves quoting your own words back to you to reveal your hypocrisy…(its a pretty easy game by the way)

2.I’m not denying the fact that progressives care about issues, what I was doing, clearly, was pointing out how you believe that a rational conversation about these issues cannot be had with progressives.

This case represents the intersection of three major emotional issues for progressives. Race, gun-control, and self-defense law. Each one alone is difficult to discuss rationally, but all three together, no chance.

Hi TalkingStick,

I’ve been following FDL for about a year now, but only recently started posting. I think part of what made me hesitant about posting is that in reading the commentary on a near daily basis I sensed a great respect between commenters. Some people were exceptions, but yours felt like a fairly tight-knit group, and overall I thought people were respectful even when they disagreed. It can be a bit intimidating to join into a conversation that seems so intimate.

What I see in this commentary thread is a bit of disconnect between people, like myself, who feel that Zimmerman’s bad action was based at least in part on his fear of a person who didn’t look like himself. People like me believe irrational fear is the root of racism, so it’s not much of a stretch to project racism onto Zimmerman. On the other hand are people who are loathe to classify someone else as racist, and with good reason. My presumption is this unwillingness is based on some little nugget within themselves to which the racism label would offend.

For me, I see the racism in myself and I find it disgusting. I know it was not birthed of my heart and I want to eradicate it. I’m equally intolerant of it in others. I think that if one finds the racist label causes pain, one should ask oneself why it hurts. I have. In my opinion, this is the first step in connecting with oneself -accepting the parts of us we don’t like, and a pre-requisite for connecting with others.

Connection without self awareness is like barking.

Yep.

And also I just recovered the long suppressed memory of two years of hell being sued for malpractice with one of the claims being I had done bad things out of racial prejudice. The claimant mobilized friends, contacted all the local media, the New York Times, WaPo etc. The Medical Board was contacted etc etc. Had I not had good lawyers who defended me as well as a pre-existing reputation with local civil rights organizations I could have not only lost a lot of money and reputation it could have resulted in loss of the legal ability to do the only thing I had ever learned how to do. There could have been a rush to condemnation such as you are passionately warning against. As it was my insurance agreed to settle leaving vindication incomplete but me safer.

So I guess I have more due than simple gratefulness to those lawyers like you who take on and demand fairness for apparent lost causes.

Bingo. Your comment about all this causing your memory to Ping…may have made all this worthwhile, TS. Congratulations; I salute you, dear TS; so much off the rails stuff came to this diary. I could try to explain the theories I’ve formed over the past two days, but I’m exhausted.

And now, my shift key is sticky, making typing fraught, and I’ve been writing diaries, commenting on a very fraught My.fld diary about site bannings, and need some sleep.

Connection without self awareness is like barking.

Welcome and hang around for a while you will find the sense of acceptance will come quickly.

See my response to RC above. I know what you are saying. I try daily to be self aware and acceptance begins with accepting our own stuff and dealing with it when it doesn’t fit our notions of the ideal self. I promise you I have made a fool of myself too many times then come to realize it was because of that “stuff” that feeds our prejudices and pre-conceptions. I grew up under Jim Crow. As a white female I worked and lived for two yeas within walking distance of the Ebenezer when MLK Sr. and son were preaching. The evangelicals are born again in some mystery. I received my redemption in the love of the African Americans I served and worked with. I admit to a certain call of tribalism when I imagine one is being mistreated.

We are all works in progress. :-)

Except me. Because I resist progress. Haven’t made any in years.

Just get a reading comprehension coach, OK? I can’t be responsible for correcting every wrong assumption or interpretation you are capable of making. Life is too short. Seriously.

I ask you to read the comment from TalkingStick that follows yours. She is not racist, but was accused of being. Ask her if it hurt. Or, ask yourself if it would hurt if I said right now that you were a child-molester, or a wife-beater, or a rapist. And this is a community you’ve chosen to associate yourself with. Would it not hurt to have to defend against those accusations? Be honest with yourself. That little psychology rule-of-thunmb you applied is not a good or reliable one.

Just get a reading comprehension coach, OK? I can’t be responsible for correcting every wrong assumption or interpretation you are capable of making. Life is too short. Seriously.

gI let your words do the talkin…. I just present what you say. Its not my fault that the only conclusion one could draw is that your are a hypocrite. Don’t get angry at me… or do…. whatever, I don’t really care.

Yeah, OK, whatever you say, nocanreadorthink.

Paging Teddy Partridge-somebody called me a name!! Leap to my defense, will ya? ;-)

Just saying if old Z does manage to escape charges I would be willing to bet that someone will Feel threatened by him within one year and put him down like a bad habit. Probably say that they saw that gun he likes to carry around and felt the Hispanic (-ridiculous race qualifier to make it more like Z’s claim that Trayvon looked drugged out mainly because he was black and had his hoodie up-it was raining after all)was more than likely going to rob he/she so that he/she had no choice but to use deadly force–ie stand your ground. And the world will be a better place……