It was inevitable that conservatives would view the tragic death of a 17 year-old black kid as a political game where they were “losing” and had to come up with something to get back the upper hand. Thus we have a spate of revolting counter-attacks on the character of a dead teenager, as if any of them would warrant shooting him in cold blood.
First, they sent out an alleged photo of Martin in a requisite “scary black teen” pose, which turned out not to actually BE Trayvon Martin, but I guess they all look alike. As Dave Weigel points out, wingers are STILL sending around the photo. Then, the Sanford Police Department leaked a report that Martin was suspended from school because of trace amounts of marijuana found in his book bag, which in Sanford they usually settle by having a vigilante shoot and kill the offender, right? Finally, the Daily Caller decided to post Martin’s tweets for no discernible reason. The tweets depict your basic 17 year-old talking about girls. I know that when I go and get myself murdered, I want to have a bunch of people picking around my Twitter feed to figure out why I deserved it.
No more serious but at least marginally relevant to the case at hand, the lawyer for George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed Martin, claims that Martin started the fight and was beating Zimmerman’s head against the concrete, when… I guess Zimmerman managed to get up, pull out his gun and shoot the assailant? None of this makes sense either, and the Orlando Sentinel had a particularly abominable story about this that simultaneously attributes Zimmerman’s story to the police, then says it’s vague and unknowable, then says there are witnesses, and then says there aren’t.
I think Michelle Goldberg captures this pretty well:
I’m far from the first to notice the similarities between the way people talk about Martin and the way they talk about rape victims, whose clothes and histories are often subject to scrutiny no matter how cut-and-dried the case seems. Like a rape victim, Martin’s past is being excavated for evidence that he might have provoked the harm done to him. It hardly matters that even if Martin had gotten high every day, it would have had zero relevance; it’s not as if marijuana use is linked to violence. Nor that it’s not unusual for a teenager to come across as obnoxious on Twitter. People were looking for some tenuous justification for treating him as complicit in his own death, and now they’ve found it. (For the record, I was also suspended from high school, though in my case for smoking cigarettes. I trust that should a stranger shoot me in the street, no one will treat this as a mitigating factor.)
On the surface, it’s odd that Martin’s image would become so politicized. No ideological capitulation would be required for conservatives to mourn his death—one can believe in gun rights and still believe that he shouldn’t have been killed. A real NRA fanatic, after all, might make a case that Martin himself should have been armed, so that he could stand his ground against the paranoid man who was stalking him.
But of course, everything is political nowadays. If a black kid gets shot and folks want justice for that, the other side – the other side of the murder of a black kid! – has to come up with their own narrative, something pleasing to their allies, something they can use to win the argument. It’s about as shameful as you can get.
Also see Jenice Armstrong.





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Next up on FOX: Hannity argues that eating Skittles instead of M&Ms is justification for homicide. Right after these messages from frightened white guys.
This is one of those days where I wake up and am ashamed to be an American…how is this great country “the land of the free” even arguing over this…let this had been a black man with $20 worth of weed in his pocket and he’d be under the jail but a young man gets shot and his shooter walks free bc the boy happened to be of a darker complexion who happened to live a normal teenage life smdh a disgrace
What I find astounding that no one is talking about is if that IDIOT hadn’t followed Martin (and with a gun – tho I’m not against guns in particular) NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED!!!!!
That’s where the core of all of this lies. Following someone with a gun (most likely out in the open for it to have been a thing in all of this) would make anyone gravely concerned. And from the transcripts of the 911 call and the ugly things that were said, who knows what kind of ugliness was coming out of the IDIOT’s mouth toward Martin.
Martin’s character in or out of the equation, the IDIOT was the aggressor for his actions and possible words. Had he left the boy alone he would still be alive.
Come on, chasing someone with a gun and you’re the victim???
I live in The City Beuatiful and the Sentinel can handle the usual stuff–somebody got run over on the beach,Dwight Howard decided to stay for a year, some local pol copped a plea, Alan Grayson ran into a bus…….. anything of this magnitude is waaaaaaay over its head. Of course it was abominable.
Greater civility is apparently needed when declining an invitation to play Glock, paper, skittles.
A couple generations from now, American history students will look back at this time and shake their heads, mystified and ashamed that we all somehow put up with this kind of debased and grotesque public environment, let alone had major figures who made careers of open hate and bile. History books will leave the impression that there were hardly any decent Americans in the early 21st century.
As I’ve been saying for days now, this is going to become a political hot potato for Republicans through the election. It is interesting, indeed, that Republicans feel the need feel victimized somehow by Trayvon Martin’s tragic death. What evil little souls conservative extremists must have to attack the President over his comments about how if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon.
The GOP appears overrun by the Tea Party, which is >90% white and mostly older than 60, and strongly Southern. Jim Crow was their childhood. Newt Gingrich is their mascot, and Rick Santorum is their tool.
It really doesn’t matter to me if the victim was or was not a criminal. Even if he was, no individual has the right to act as self-appointed judge, jury and executioner… not even in Florida.
Yep, as far as I’m concerned he lost any claim to “self defense” when he ignored the person manning the 911 dispatch that told him to stop following the teen. Zimmerman basically stalked this teen. A stalker doesn’t get to claim self defense.
Anymore, it does seem as if the T-GOPers wait to see how the so-called “Liberals” respond to something, and then based solely on the purported “liberal response,” formulate an equal but very opposite response… just because!
Tediously predictable with the usual tragic results. A bunch of nasty, mostly white older people, playing some kind of weird convoluted victim card whilst trashing both the US POTUS (not much love lost on my part re Obama, but still…) and some dead AA teenager, who, clearly, according to these Jim Crow Southern Strategy-brainwashed T-GOPers had it coming!!!!!!
As DanR says @8, I shudder to be lumped in with these unfathomable creeps by those viewing us down the lens of history. yeeesh.
My heart goes out to young Mr. Martin’s family for all the slings and arrows they’ve had to bear under such tragically trying circumstances.
We know Zimmerman was stalking Lewis–the dispatcher tried to call him off. Under the terms of the godawful FL law, Lewis might well have been WITHIN HIS RIGHTS to attack an armed Zimmerman COMING AFTER HIM. The terms of the FL lawmakers’ fantasy vigilante scenario were absolutely reversed here.
Is anyone really surprised? This is how fascist operate. Shoot first ask questions later. Torture is a good way to the truth. Blame the victim for their misfortune and at the same time make themselves victims. Misogyny and violence is just the way life is. The “authorities” are always correct. Profit and greed are the only human motivators. God is on their side.
“I want to have a bunch of people picking around my Twitter feed to figure out why I deserved it.”
I don’t do twitter but my FB status updates make it pretty clear that I’m a liberal. I sure that will prove a sufficiently mitigating circumstance to some to justify my violent demise.
The fact that we haven’t seen conservatives en masse state that Trayvon should have been packing as well tells us something, doesn’t it? They’re oh-so-eager to use faked-up Stormfront graphics and cherry-picked Tweets to attack his character, but when it comes to stating that he should have had a gun too — in other words, what they say in every instance of a high-profile crime where the victims are white — they are oddly silent.
Very well said.
Police: Trayvon Martin Beat Man Before Being Shot
Above from yesterday’s SF Chrony
===========
I don’t believe the police at all in Sanford and now this article shows up. Even if Trayvon had a right to kick Zimmerman’s ass in self defense, if he beat Zimmerman this severely why wouldn’t he take to the airwaves to show the extent of his injuries to justify the shooting?
Sanford FL used to be where the Dodgers held Spring Training until Jackie Robinson. Bigots forced the Dodgers out of Sanford FL.
Dang I resemble that remark!! ☺
And now I just heard Michael Medved suggesting that Trayvon was suspended 3 times, once for having burlary tools in his backpack, once for tardiness, and the most recent for having an empty bag of weed.
Let the smears commence.
Part of all this process is to make “their guy” the victim and “our guy” the aggressor.
The more that they make Trayvon not like them or their son, the easier it is to justify the shooting.
So much of this is about trying to evoke empathy from the listener, reader.
If I can’t defend my guy’s actions or the law that made it possible I need to figure out how to flip it to my guy being the victim and put us in the position of defending “our guy”
The media are easy prey for this because of their need to get, “The other side” of the story. Yet they don’t go to the “obsessed guy with a gun” to get their response they go to the “rational guy with a gun” as the spokesperson in absence.
The burglary tools suspension will be the smear of choice. It plays right into Zimmerman’s narrative that he’s just a law abiding volunteer neighborhood watch captain who in the course of his legally authorized duties came upon a probable burglar.
Wonderbar
yeah, really.
Like no white person/teen has any skeletons (or tardy slips) in their closet.
I would say: how can such entities live with themselves, as new lows are stooped to on a daily basis.
Sadly, I don’t think we’ve gotten close to touching bottom yet.
More Kabuki Show from the 1% ever fanning the flames of racial hatred (this go-round) to pit significant portions of the 99% against other significant segments of the 99%… all in the name of keeping the 99% dumbed down enough to not notice who’s really ripping us all off & oppressing all of the 99%. ptoui! bastards.
By the way, here is an interesting feature on Al-Jazeera on Guns in America. The guests:
David Burnett from the Students for Concealed Carry, a group which advocates for firearms; Elliot Fineman from the National Gun Victims Council, and whose son was shot and killed in 2006; and Hubert Williams, the president of the Police Foundation and a former law enforcer.
I really like the way the interactions between the former cop and the students for conceal carry. And Elliot Fineman makes some great points you rarely hear about how wrong headed people are about gun laws.
Heh,
My facebook account basically supports me welcoming our corporate overlords. I do have ladyparts though. Generally speaking the batshit crazy brigade would consider that mitigating enough.
First, you have no idea he was “chasing” him with a gun. You “think” he did.
The actual evidence is contrary to that.
According to Martin’s own girlfriend, it was Martin who confronted Zimmerman.
“Why are you following me, man?”
According to the other side, when the 911 operator said, “We don’t need you to follow him,” Zimmerman said “Ok,” and turned around to head back to his car. Martin then came up behind him.
Now, as I mentioned Saturday, the only actual eye witness to what happened before the shot was fired, says Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him. Zimmerman, not martin, was calling to him for help.
That interview took place the day after the shooting, a month ago, before all the emotion entered into this.
That interview has now been broadcast a number of times, so there is no question about this.
The man’s unit fronts on the scene of the shooting, no more than 15 or 20 feet away.
Part of the story is that Martin was knocking Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk. The wounds Zimmerman had on the back of his head and the eyewitness account confirm that.
To me, when you are start to pound someone’s head into the sidewalk, you are trying to kill them and they are entitled to defend themselves.
Now, here is something that is beyond dispute. The initial news accounts said “A black teen was killed while walking through a gated community in Florida.” This was calculated to make you think “A black teen was walking through a rich, white neighborhood when a white guy just shot him as he was walking along.”
Nearly every part of that initial flavor was wrong. The “gated community” was a lower working class townhouse development. The white man turned out to be a Hispanic man. And no one disputes that the shooting took place during a scuffle–not someone just walking along.
So, how much of the rest of what you believe is also likely wrong? Since not much has turned out to be right, maybe none.
That said, Martin’s history, personality and other things coming out now are not relevant at all. Out of respect for the dead, they ought to be curbed.
If the physical evidence and the eyewitness accounts show that Zimmerman was being attacked, no one is going to arrest him or convict him. And, all the demonstrations will not change that.
It is going to interesting to see how the politicians climb down from the limb they’ve put themselves on.
NEVER let the facts get in the way of a good story.
So what is the providence of Medved’s comment? Stormfront?
Burglary tools? What exactly is that? Lockpick set? A rock to smash and grab? What?
Oh my goodness he was TARDY! Well that settles it, he totally deserved it then./s
Michael Medved is a maroon.
As noted above, there was an eyewitness that night, and also interviewed on TV the day after the shooting who corroborated this version of events.
there are also paramedic records for that night to corroborate this.
Which part of “why are you following me” don’t you get?
Zimmerman was told by a 911 dispatcher to cease and desist following the teen. The fact that he chose to ignore that is what percipatated the confrontation to begin with.
Clearly, I said that the other side of the story is that he DID stop following at the point and began walking back to his car.
That was when Martin confronted him.
So, he had stopped following him.
Besides, it doesn’t matter. If someone is pounding your head into the sidewalk, they are trying to kill you and you have a right to defend yourself.
Or, if it were you, maybe you’d say, “Well, I was following you, so I better just let you kill me.”
Luckily, we are, at least yet, not ruled by mobs. Once this is all out on the table, we’ll all know what happened and be able to rationally judge.
Maybe you mean that if you are following me, I have the right to smash your head into the sidewalk and kill you.
Lots of people have been killed from having their head knocked into a sidewalk or pavement when someone is on top of them.
Links Cregan?
Oops, checked your comment history and you said you heard it somewhere.
You should change your user name to “craven”.
I don’t know. Do you have an opinion on that?
All I was saying was that the Zimmerman apostles like Cregan will point to the lock-picking suspension as proof that Martin was a professional burglar, and that Zimmerman engaged in a righteous Charles Bronson styled killing. It’s all about marginalizing and de-humanizing the victim.
If Trayvon had beaten up Zimmerman why wait a month to mention it? If Trayvon had really beaten up Zimmerman where are the pics? The police, ER, doctors in general take pics of everything. Do you really think the chief of police would have temporarily resigned if all he had to do was show a pic of a bloodied Zimmerman? A picture would make this whole mess go away. Where are the pics? They don’t exist because this story that Trayvon beat up Zimmerman is a bunch of shit/spin.
For that matter, why did it take a month to update Zimmerman’s photo from his prior mug shot to something else? Because this is all spin now that the heat is on. Gotta start blaming the victim.
What about Cretin? It may not be the right word, but it’s the first word that comes to mind.
Zimmerman had some superficial cuts. He was asked by the cops if he wanted to go to the hospital, and he said “no”.
Now suddenly these cuts which Zimmerman himself didn’t think rated treatment are turned into a justification for Trayvon Martin’s murder?
Yeah. Their craven fear of right-wingers calling them up and screaming at them has made them sacrifice truth for “balance”.
http://phoebe53.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/zimmerman-911-call-transcript-trayvon-martin/
Here’s a transcript of the call from Zimmerman. At 2:26 he was told to stop following the kid. He was in his truck. During the conversation he goes as far to suggest that he “lost” the kid. At some point he left his vehicle to follow this kid. That’s stalking. The guy lost his claim to self defense when he left that truck to pursue this kid.
Computer_is_gummed_up___sorry
_
Headlined_on_my_smartphone’s_so-called_news_
NYDailyNews_going_after_Treyvon’s_mother_
_
She’s_moving_to_trademark_”We_are_all_Trayvon”___or_something_like_that___
_
The_insinuation_is_that_she_will_make_a_buck_off_her_son’s_corpse_
Refuted_by_her_lawyer_at_the_verrrrry_end_of_the_article_
_
If_someone_else_wants_to_provide_a_link_to_this_journalistic_turd_feel_free___
Hmmmm. Funny how the folks passing around the Stormfront photo montage as if it were legit don’t ever mention this.
If he had stayed in his truck as the dispatcher suggested and met the law enforcement officers then he wouldn’t of had to worry about getting his head smashed on pavement.
Oh and cregan the call ended at 4:07. So what exactly was Zimmerman doing between 2:26 and 4:07 after he had been told to back off?
Cregan,
I see you’re at it again with the dubious spinning.
Trayvon’s comment via his girlfriend “Why are you following me, man?” is NOT proof that Martin confronted Zimmerman FIRST. It’s hilarious that you are leaving out the majority of her statement which strongly indicated that Martin was trying to actively avoid Zimmerman. You are also leaving out that Zimmerman responded to Martin before the fight broke out.
There is no evidence to support Zimmerman’s claim that he stopped his pursuit of Martin and was headed back to his car when Martin came up behind him and I note that is a changed version of his original story about being at his car when Martin came up behind him. I guess his lawyer realized that the struggle and death took place too far from there for that to make sense.
Again, you point out the one witness who supports PART of Zimmerman’s claim about PART of the struggle but ignore the women, on whose property the fight and death took place who contradict that witness. It’s telling the the Sandford PD ignored the women for two weeks until they took their story to the press.
You should probably take your own advice about not letting facts get in the way of a good story.
I have no problem with her trademarking that phrase. She’ll need the money for her lawyers.
The NYDN’s owners and operators are pond scum, pure and simple. Or, as James Aronson said several decades ago:
My question is: was Martin’s attack on Zimmerman justifiable self defense? This guy outweighed him by a 100 pounds and who knows if their struggle didn’t start when Zimmerman brandished his weapon.
If we want to judge Martn guilty for being truant and having an empty sack of weed, what about Zimmerman’s prior behavior calling 911 47 times? a guy just itching to “make someone’s” day.
In my mind, Zimmerman forfeits his victim bonadides when he approached Martin after having been told not to by the 911 dispatcher
Sanford, Florida is 30% black. What percent of the police department is black?
Considering the body was pretty much found in someone’s backyard it’s pretty ridiculous that anyone would suggest that Zimmerman was on his way to his car.
Here’s some more transcripts.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/
It’s interesting to note that the one person who did witness the scuffle seems to suggest a person with a white t shirt(vice a gray hoodie) was on top. I’d be interested to know what Zimmerman was wearing that night.
One more thing: last week Cenk played the unedited call on the Young Turks, and if you remove the bleep of Zimmerman saying fuck, it sure sounded like He said “fucking coons”
Also would be interested to know the location on the body that Martin was shot. I wonder why that hasn’t been reported yet.
Yeah those cuts that didn’t even require hospitalization at the time of the incident have magically turned into “a broken nose and 17? stitches.”
Martin was in the grey hoodie and the fight took place on the women I mentioned earlier property. The one witness that cregan keeps bring up that claimed Martin was winning the fight is contradicted by those women who claim that Trayvon was calling for help.
I think the reports said it was a chest wound.
wow! you think someone asking someone why he’s following him makes him the aggressor? really?
There seems to be conflicting stories about who was calling for help and there seems to be a bunch of people who were too afraid to examine the situation closesly to figure it out while it was going on.
It sure would have been helpful if the police had actually sent out a forensics team to examine the scene and done there darnedest to get the “testimony” or account of what happened from Trayvon’s viewpoint rather than blanketly allow someone who shot someone else to be the final authority on what happened.
Zimmerman’s account seems to be everchanging too. If he was so darn afraid for his life then how did he end up in someone’s backyard instead of in his vehicle to begin with? My guess? He pursued this kid despite being told not to.
If an unidentifiable person were following me I might do the same if I felt I was caged in. I sure hope I don’t get shot for saying that.
I’m with you. This poor woman lost her kid and has had to fight tooth and nail to have the situation that led to his death questioned let alone tried in court.
So after all the smearing noise we have 3 suspensions from school. One for burgular tools (I think it was a screwdriver), one for tardiness and one for an empty bag of pot. That’s it? The attempt to turn a tall but very-light-in-the-ass teenager into a scary negro gang-banging hulk is also a big fail.
It was interesting watching an Orlando Sentinnel reporter trying to play the false equivalency game by claiming that if Trayvon’s past wasn’t relevant then neither was Zimmerman’s. Um….WHAT? Trayvon’s “past” incidents weren’t violent whereas Zimmerman’s (altercation with the cops, dv complaint and restraining order) absolutely were and since this was a violent incident, it’s pretty clear that Zimmerman’s past propensity for violence is relevant whereas Travyon’s is not.
That should be “…wheras Trayvon’s past is not…”
Uh oh….it’s time for the rightwing noise machine to gear up again…
“The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.
But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney’s office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn’t enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.
Police brought Zimmerman into the station for questioning for a few hours on the night of the shooting, said Zimmerman’s attorney, despite his request for medical attention first. Ultimately they had to accept Zimmerman’s claim of self defense. He was never charged with a crime.
Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman’s version of events.
Zimmerman, 28, claimed he shot Martin, 17, in self defense.
One complicating factor in the investigation was that the first detective to interview Zimmerman about the shooting was a narcotics officer rather than a homicide detective.
The State Attorney’s office said only “no comment” when asked about the affidavit today.”
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-manslaughter-charge-151838720–abc-news-topstories.html
Notice that Zimmerman’s attorney is lying about the medical treatment thing? It’s in the police report that Zimmerman was treated at the scene and refused further medical attention.
If_I_were_Zimmerman_I’d_have_one_of_my_buddies_beat_me_up_
_and_claim_my_victim_did_it___
If I were a 17 year old male (of any color) and a strange male was stalking me, I’d think it was a pedophile kidnapper, especially if they pulled a gun on me. I’ve not seen this possibility mentioned by anyone, anywhere.
You know…I may have to rethink my position. I’ve just had a Revelation! and failed to realize how amazing Zimmerman was that fateful day.
It was a dark and stormy night…when SUDDENLY! our hero, after tracking his potentially nefarious man down, was set upon and struck, by his 100lb lighter target, with such force that it broke his nose and sent him reeling onto his back. Sensing his opportunity, the unarmed target lept on top of our hero with animal like ferocity and…bashed!…bashed I say!…bashed! his head upon the cold, damp, hard ground. Then, going in for the kill, the target went for our hero’s gun! Gasp! Could this be the end for our hero!!!!!
But, despite taking a horrendous beating and perhaps wailing like a little girl, our hero digs deep down and…um…heroically…manages to unholster his gun….while the target was on top on him and going for it…and shoot the non-evildoer dead!
Yes, I’m sure that’s how it happened. Uh huh…
ABC News is reporting that the lead homicide investigator, the one who questioned George Zimmerman shortly after he killed Trayvon Martin, wanted manslaughter charges to be filed against Zimmerman, because the investigator was “unconvinced” after listening to Zimmerman’s account of the shooting (i.e. he felt Zimmerman was lying).
The lead homicide investigator’s judgment was overruled by someone higher-up, apparently by the state attorney, Norman Wolfinger, who said a conviction was impossible (even though at that time they didn’t even know the identity of the victim, nor had all the evidence been collected, nor had all the witnesses come forward at that time). So, Zimmerman was allowed to walk, still carrying the murder weapon with him, still wearing the clothes he was wearing at the crime scene, and with Zimmerman fleeing police custody without being tested for drugs or alcohol.
Something stinks.
This is what I maintain above. No one has considered this. Doubt Martin was aware of the awful law, but he would have had legal grounds to attack Zimmerman–an apparent armed assailant–under it. The people who made the law were emphatically NOT colorblind, but the law, in its infinite majesty. . .
You can also construct a scenario where Zimmerman is following Martin, frightening Martin, then slinks away, whereupon Martin steels his nerve, approaches and demands to know what the h Zimmerman was thinking. Zimmerman now has his convoluted/contrived confrontation, and murder ensues.
Much of this has been public knowledge for the last week. It’s the reason I said that the public should not be too quick to judge the chief, who himself said he decided not to press charges after consulting the AG.
1) What communications occurred on the night of Trayvon Martin’s murder between Zimmerman and his dad, a retired judge, probably someone with both police and political connections? What about between Zimmerman’s dad and Sanford police chief Bill Lee? Between Zimmerman’s dad and the state attorney, Norman Wolfinger, who decided to overrule the lead homicide investigator’s decision that Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter? Between Zimmerman’s dad and the special prosecutor following her appointment to “look at” the Trayvon Martin murder case? (Note: this line of questions reminded of the charges being dropped against George Zimmerman after his altercation with a police officer. Did something similar happen after Zimmerman’s killing of Trayvon Martin, after similar pressure was applied by whomever?)
2) The Orlando-Sentinel is acting as a conduit for unattributed quotes smearing Trayvon Martin’s reputation, trying to spin public opinion. Someone in the Sanford police department is behind these leaks? Someone in the special prosecutor’s office?
3) The full release of Trayvon Martin’s autopsy findings might help clarify certain things. Entrance/exit wounds? Powder burns? Indications of a fight?
4) Why was Trayvon Martin’s cellphone overlooked, and by whom? Why were calls from family members to this cellphone missed between the time when Trayvon Martin was murdered and when the authorities finally identified their “John Doe” dead body in storage at the county coroners?
FWIW, cregan is not lying about that interview. Someone else provided the link a few comments down from the one you saw. I have it right here in my computer, but for some reason, I can’t copy it (tech illiterate here). But you can definitely get it off that comment thread you referenced. The interviewee is very clear and calm. Not my job to protect cregan specifically, but he’s right and you guys are abusing him unfairly on this thread. From an Orlando TV station on Feb. 27, day after the shooting. Video of the scene, as well. Y’all ought to look, and apologize to cregan. I know he’s wrong a lot, but not this time lol. Fox Tv, Orlando, updated March 26.
well, our President does exactly that.
Whatever actually happened in that yard that night, the police and DA are stinking pretty bad right now.
The transcripts speak for themselves and cregan has yet to answer how someone who was told by a 911 dispatcher not to follow trayvon ended up in someone’s backyard instead of sitting in his truck waiting for the police to arrive.
The way I see it you don’t get to argue self defense when YOU are the individual seeking out a confrontation. The minute he chose to try and figure out where Trayvon went his self defense argument went out the window.
Zimmerman chased Trayvon Martin down, confronted him, a scared 17-year-old kid, and tried to make a citizens arrest, probably with Zimmerman pulling (or attempting to pull) his gun to hold Trayvon Martin at gunpoint until police arrived.
The scared 17-year-old, Trayvon Martin had a choice once Zimmerman caught up with him and probably reaching for his gun; stand his ground, run for his life, or try to disarm Zimmerman (and hold Zimmerman while calling for help from anyone nearby). In as sense, Trayvon Martin stood his ground, especially when faced with a fight or flight situation, because he didn’t know who this guy was and why he’d pull a gun on him. If Trayvon Martin turned his back on Zimmerman and tried to flee, he would have probably been shot in the back (or at least thought he would), so Trayvon Martin (in a no doubt panic) tried to wrest the gun from Zimmerman, which set off the scuffle, as Trayvon Martin tried to neutralize his stalker and assailant. Trayvon Martin was winning the fight, but Zimmerman got his gun hand free and shot Trayvon Martin, killing him…and only then did Zimmerman wait for the police to arrive, with the scared 17-year-old Trayvon Martin dying or already dead at this feet, feet that shouldn’t have even stepped out of his car if he’d just followed the orders of the Sanford 9-1-1 police dispatcher, orders which Zimmerman even said “Okay” to.
Det. Serino, the Sanford homicide investigator, listened to Zimmerman’s account at the police station and was “unconvinced” about Zimmerman’s account of what happened, recommending that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter (mind you, not murder or letting him walk-out uncharged, but charged with with something in the middle, which would have at least kept the investigation going, evidence collected, eyewitnesses contacted, the dead boy identified, a guy with a gun held in custody). But someone intervened (for whatever reason and at whomever’s bequest) and stopped all this in its tracks, letting the shooter walk free. And neighbors have reported that Zimmerman packed up and left for parts unknown, almost like he’s now in hiding. IOW, while Trayvon Martin refused to turn and run the night he was killed, Zimmerman has turned tail and run, to some as yet unknown location, maybe to the home of his retired-judge dad? I understand why Zimmerman is now scared, just as I understand why Trayvon Martin was scared the night he was relentlessly pursued by Zimmerman through a supposedly safe, gated community, Zimmerman pursued and killed just for being a black teenager going up to and returning from a nearby convenience store.
Cregan’s certainly not getting any sort of apology from me. He and you can go fish for that elsewhere. I simply pointed out he keeps mentioning that witness who backs part of Zimmerman’s story but keeps ignoring the witnesses who conflict with that witness. Whatever.
Many have shared your take on that, but the lawyer in me won’t let me agree. There was no legal obligation to listen to the dispatcher (who is NOT a law officer), and in any event the same dispatcher was OK with him telling her that he was going to follow, so he’d have to be called by the patrol car to find out where he was. Anybody, even you or me, has the legal right to follow anyone anywhere, and even to approach and ask a question. Why would anybody question that? What matters in any self-defense case is, who made the first aggressive physical move? And there seems to be some real doubt about that. There is also no basis to assume Trayvon knew Zimmerman was armed, another fact people have been filling in for themselves with no basis. There are several key facts that are not known at this point, so the loud yellers are just expressing their feelings. Hopefully, some of those key facts will get established by a competent investigation.
This little microcosm of thread shows a lot about how your brain works. Not good. :-(
Of course you avoid my point about Cregan’s posts and just continue with the pompous lecturing and posing. Silly stuff.
Anyway, it remains amusing that you continue to shade Zimmerman’s actions in the most neutral, and favorable light, imaginable. The dispatcher didn’t OK anything Zimmerman did. She was clearly trying to nudge him away from the chase and keep him out of the way until the police arrived. It’s interesting that you say that Zimmerman didn’t have a legal obligation to listen to the dispatcher but then try to give her some “authority” by claiming she ok’d Zimmerman’s actions. Weak.
“There is also no basis to assume Trayvon knew Zimmerman was armed, another fact people have been filling in for themselves with no basis.”
Now you’re simply being disigenuous to put it kindly. Nobody has been filling in the fact, or assuming, that Trayvon knew Zimmerman was armed. That’s simply not true and borders on being an outright lie. He didn’t know before the confrontation but he certainly knew it once they confronted each other.
Finally, your attempt to not-so-subtly define “aggressive act” is dumb. Yeah, the armed guy with the criminal record and a bad attitude who’s following a teen fuckin’ coon…er I mean goon…who always gets away, first in his car and then on foot, is not committing an aggressive act but the teen who knew he was being followed by a stranger and might have punched him when they finally met up is, right?
Sure…nice to see how your brian works… Heh.
I’m sorry you can’t do a simple analysis. My point about cregan was limied to precisely what I wrote, that’s it-you are going other places with it, without justification. Plus, your third, fourth, and fifth paragraphs are logically defective on their face, each one, individually. See if you can figure out why.
Should be “second, fourth, and fifth paragraphs. . .” You just keep insisting on acting like you know facts you do not, and cannot, know. I am OK with uncertainty until clarity is obtainable, but you need to know the ending right now, and that is where you and many others are going wrong, IMO. If Zimmerman is guilty under the law, I want him to fry just as much as you do. But we don’t know enough facts to make that determination right now, and suspicion and speculation is not good enough to fry a man, which is what happens in Florida.
Blah, blah blah…more diversionary blather from you. I’m not interested.