President Obama just wrapped up his speech on the Ryan budget, and Jed Lewison has a couple live-blogs about it. He was quite pleased with the speech. But I want to point out something he wrote at the very end:
Obama continues hammering Republicans for moving so far to the right. “Cap and trade was originally proposed by Republicans … now they say we shouldn’t even be thinking about environmental protection.” “The individual mandate … originated as a conservative idea. … Now suddenly this is some socialist overreach. So, as all of you are doing your reporting, I think it’s important to remember that the positions I’m taking now on the budget and a whole host of other issues … [20 years ago] would have been squarely centrist.” It’s Republicans that have shifted.
Isn’t it Democrats who have shifted as well? For this to be the case, for the Democratic leader to have co-opted a whole bunch of Republican plans on the biggest economic issues of the day, represents the clear fact that the Democratic Party has ideologically become akin to where a moderate Republican would have stood in the 1960s. And the claim is always that this is a function of politics, that it’s about compromise, it’s about moving things forward. That’s against the entire point of today’s speech! Obama was saying precisely that Republicans are NOT willing to compromise. If these shifts in ideology were about compromise, it would presume that a compromise has actually been reached. But it hasn’t. Democrats have drifted right and Republicans have drifted further right away from them, with common ground still elusive.
In another revealing moment in the speech – one the President actually said twice, once in the speech and another time in response to a question – he invoked the Bowles-Simpson recommendations for deficit reduction. And he said, very specifically, that his problems with Bowles-Simpson were that they raised too much money in taxes, and that they cut too much in national defense. This was the leader of the Democratic party staking out a position to the right Bowles-Simpson. He didn’t say he objected to raising of the retirement age in that plan, or the Medicare cuts and global budgeting. He objecting to it raising too much revenue and cutting too much of the military budget. He also touted that discretionary spending as a percentage of GDP under him was “lower than it was under Eisenhower,” and that he started “no big new programs to help the poor.”
So the President made a very cogent case against Paul Ryan’s budget. Anyone can tell you that. And he made a very good case that, in a choice between the right and the middle, the middle position, his position, should be preferable. That this leaves out an entire side of the argument should be quite obvious.
This isn’t just on Obama, by the way. We’ve had a rightward shift in our politics for the last forty years. Obama didn’t really try to change that, instead positioning himself in the middle on policy, instead of shifting where the middle is perceived. But what major Democratic political figure HAS tried to change that over those forty years?
In the 1970s, issues like a guaranteed national income were actually a part of Presidential campaigns. In this day and age, you get the adoption of conservative ideas as the leftward plank in the range of acceptable opinions. Far from changing this conversation, the online progressive movement of the past several years hasn’t really even arrested the forward motion. This is the real story of American politics, when you get out of the day-to-day struggles.





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Dayen:
It’s an election year. Remember how pleased we all were with Obama during the last year he was running for election? Remember how the rhetoric reached out to each of us, motivating and inspiring us?
Then came the intermission from the speeches, which we can refer to as “President Obama’s First Term in Office”.
This term brought us:
1) Slavish devotion banking interests at taxpayer expense.
2) A continuation or expansion of the Bush era assassination programs including the first overt assassination of a US citizen as directed by a sitting President.
3) An “environmental” policy seemingly focused on expanding drilling and extraction.
4) A “health care” plan based on policy proposals from the Heritage Foundation, with an implementation borrowed from the current Republican presidential candidate, that prioritizes the profits and power of the health insurance and pharmaceutical corporations.
5) A middle east policy relying largely on warfare as a principle tool.
6) A CFPB largely thrown under the bus along with Elizabeth Warren.
7) Ongoing outreach to and compromise with Republicans as if they matter more than anything.
8) The phrase “climate change” has all but never been spoken aloud in public by President Obama.
9) A long, abusive tenor of the grating and regressive Rahm Emmanuel, Obama’s right hand mand for years.
10) An Occupy movement that was ignored and dissed by Obama and his administration.
11) A population of a presidential administration almost exclusively from Harvard and Yale graduates even as the man campaigned on reviving public education.
PS Guantanamo Bay is still open.
Perhaps before we start getting “pleased” with Obama’s speeches in this election year, we should try to remember his first term?
Remember the promise of a President who was given a Nobel Peace Prize upon arriving in DC because his presence in DC held so much promise for political change in the most powerful country on Earth that he could have been a historic world-changer? Remember “change we can believe in”? Remember “hope”?
“Isn’t it Democrats who have shifted as well? For this to be the case, for the Democratic leader to have co-opted a whole bunch of Republican plans on the biggest economic issues of the day, represents the clear fact that the Democratic Party has ideologically become akin to where a moderate Republican would have stood in the 1960s.”
Exactly, David, and why we old school Democrats despair.
What Democratic President over last 40 years was elected on a wave of revulsion at GOP Conservatism, was given powerful majorities in both Houses of Congress, promised transformational change to the American People and had the American People primed and desperate for that change, only to betray Progressivism and the people who elected him?
Obama has set Progressivism back 10 years and resuscitated the discredited and moribund Conservatism that has nearly destroyed the country. Don’t get much more fail than that.
Once again, wbgonne shoots…and SCORES.
He makes for a fine student of Clinton in this regard, indeed.
For my part, I’ve simply given up on the idea that the national political class and the American election system together represent some sort of “democratic” vision for the country. It’s true that the US is hardly Saudi Arabia or North Korea. It’s also true that, two centuries after the American Revolution kicked the British Monarchy off of the North American continent that the US does not have the popular democracy that exists in Britain today. Nor is the US any Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain, or Italy. The Fascist nations of the 1930′s and 1940′s today are more progressive and democratic, and bring more social and economic justice to their people, than does the US today.
The US started out as a mercantilist venture pursued by competing imperial national entities, underwritten by earlier banks. Today, the US is simply a capitalist venture, domestically based and underwritten by modern investment banks and plutocrats. The people who live and work here are, in the eyes of our overlords, just an expendable asset existing purely to enhance their moment-to-moment profits and otherwise a liability.
I’ve had enough; I don’t know exactly what to do, but I no longer hold out much stake in the US from the standpoint of an individual citizen, or a fan of great and inspiring nations in history, or simply as another non-elite human being attempting to create some small prosperity or security for himself. The US is being sucked dry by a capitalist class and when the husk has been extracted sufficiently they’ll turn their eyes elsewhere (Asia). I personally don’t even have the cover charge to pay for entrance into the club of people who actually matter in the US, nor do most of us, and to be honest you can’t even count on minimally growing wage or job security beyond 1 year, or access to health care if you are ill, or certainty that you won’t go homeless and hungry unless you are in that club. The vast majority of the 300 million American inhabitants are basically organic labor robots being organized and run into the ground by the capitalist class and that isn’t going to improve for any of us, certainly not because of “elections” here, nor because of any high-level vision and leadership intending to serve the public interest. The US is a big and modern plantation, and the goal is to figure out how to escape it to something better.
Very well said. A diary perhaps?
What’s needed to have been written at this point, by anyone, has been written. It’s all in clear public view, all one needs to know. The time for written descriptions has passed, the time for individual people to decide what to do about it, each on his own, is at hand.
He does give nice speeches.
On the rest, you’re pretty much on the mark.
Fair enough. I agree: These Obots are absolutely oblivious to the reality that Obama and the Democrats serve the 1% as much as the GOP does. THEY ARE NOT ON OUR SIDE. But Democratic partisans and Obots are impervious to evidence and reason and persist in prattling on about ponies and Joe Lieberman. No matter. They aren’t worthy of efforts to persuade. They must be marginalized because they are the enemy as much as the plutocrats they enable, defend and protect. They must be left behind, as you suggest.
(Well, maybe you weren’t actually saying all that but I am!)
Americans are too dumb for democracy ….too bad the mod wont let me post the link
cant listen anymore….however heard mention the new deal today,and my heart skipped a beat
Shorter Obama…
“I’ve done practically everything the GOP wants. Why do they still hate me so?”.
He’s just following the path approved by Prescott Bush. People seem to forget that he requested Joe Lieberman as his mentor in the Senate, idolized the American Idol President Reagan, spoke at the G.H.W.Bush library(evidence of adoption just like Clinton), and stocked his cabinet with Clinton’s disaster capitalism economic team. Can you say “Corporatist”?
You just crack me up!!!
http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2012/04/american-corporations-pay-lowest-taxes-entire-developed-world
I’d like to disagree with you.
I’d like to, but I can’t.
I’m beginning to think, as a country, we don’t have sense to pour piss out of a boot.
I agree as well.
They obviously don’t hate him. He’s performing just as instructed by the oligarchy and the only “viable” candidate they’re fielding is just a different version of him. A blatant example of “win win” for the PTB, for those paying attention.
Comment of the day. There are no “centrists”. Just the corrupt wing of the Ruling Caste and the insane wing of the Ruling Caste. Oh and the toady media of course to keep us all informed about how what’s good for the Corporate Caste is good for the country and thus is all bipartisany and stuff.
Hartmann’s another shill for the “DemocRats”.
Hartmann is still doing a show?
i have a link from San Fran chron,but mod wont let me post it
Yeah. All one has to do is look at the Republicans being fielded this cycle to realize that by offering such a piss poor slate, they can guarantee a friendly presence in the White House and they get to keep making money by fundraising off bad mouthing Obama and the rest of the “Socialist” Democrats. Meanwhile the Democrats get to fund raise off the blatant, undisguised, irredeemable batshittery coming out of the GOP. Almost like it was planned….
Hey, we HAD a democracy for what, 210 years? That’s pretty good. Lotsa folks didn’t think it would last that long. /s
Obama “positions himself” as a “true Centrist”??? Really??
I don’t believe it for an instant. No offense to anyone, but Obama is a marionette for the 1%/coporations/oligarchy. Believe you me, there’s nothing “centrist” about that crowd.
If Barry Zero *appears* to be “hammering Republicans,” just chalk it up to yet another Act in the ongoing Kabuki Show projected forth the “amusement and amazement” of a pretty much braindead/brainwashed populace. This Act can be entitled thusly:
Wherein Dear Leader pretends to be “running” for the highest office in the nation – snicker snicker cough cough (bc we all know well that the Koch brothers gave that “job” to Darth Cheney for the rest of the life that any shriveled black heart will provide him) – and hence has to *pretend* that he gives flying fuck about the serfs.
Yes, they are too dumb, as it was planned during Nixon’s term. Have you ever seen questions asked on 6th grade tests from the 40′s – 60′s and compare to those from the 80′s – today? It’s remarkable – from using-logic to absolutely no logic at all. My boys are in their 20′s and I would just grit my teeth over the fact that what they were doing in high school I had completed in 6th or 7th grade in the 50′s-60′s. (Of course, by then my family and I had taught them how to think.) You may also compare tests given in the south versus tests given in the north during the 60′s and 70′s.
Obama and his campaign don’t have a clue. Willing or unwillingly ignorant he has no demonstrable relationship with ordinary people and ordinary life. All this “positioning” rhetoric is just Kabuki. I have no idea how or whether it will influence who people vote for but it won’t be on the basis of such shallowness and word-smithing.
thought this was right on the money so to speak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VzWzLsUyXms
righteous rant, and I cannot agree more. Those who think that they’re still living on the Good Ship Titanic have not yet figured out that we rammed into the ice berg quite some time ago, and all the life boats are looooong gone. Good luck hanging onto that ever dwindling piece of rubble, whilst the great white sharks circle closer & closer in that freezing ice cold water! You just might make it… maybe…
Hey, mod!! Why can’t Sadly post a link?
agreed
ever see Lenos person on the street question? remarkable ignorance
no can do,goes blank
2012/03/09/scientists-say-america-is-too-dumb-for-democracy-to-thrive/
Eh? With respect, I disagree. All this “wordsmithing” is done because it works, I’m sorry to report. I have good friends, who are quite intelligent etc, who fall for Barry’s speechifying all the time. It’s harder to have intelligent conversations with some trad-Dem voters than it is with some Tea Partiers that I know, more’s the pity.
Oh no. Technically we’ve never had a “Democracy” at all but if you’re referring to the Democratic Republic that our Constitution was aiming for, then we’ve had it for somewhat less that 210 years. American history is rife with examples of the same kind of corporate co-option of government. This is the same old song, just a different verse. That isn’t meant to imply that we should wait for it to get better on it’s own as clearly it won’t. Activism is still necessary and I hope that it doesn’t get ugly but change will eventually happen. For better or worse, there are no guarantees but change is the only constant.
The title “Zero” suits him perfectly.
A truly excellent comment, sixgill.
Frankly, it blows the doors off the “centrist Obama” post and, as well, blows the smokescreen of democratic “traditions” right off this pretend republic and away from any notion that voting for a “lesser evil” avails “the people” of anything but … more evil.
I would only add that the American legal system, the “law”, is but the obedient slave, now, of money, of unfettered greed, and the bought-out, indentured servant, the quaking vassal, of unchecked power.
I agree with wbgonne, sixgill, a diary to flesh this out a bit more would be much appreciated, for you are speaking to the reality of our time and place and laying the foundation for a much more intensive discussion, not merely of our common plight, but also of what may reasonably, and collectively be done about it.
It is narratives such as your comment which both inform and energize genuine understanding.
Great good on ya!!!
DW
What obama really means by “centrist” of course is passing every republican policy without question. I really dont understand why so many so called liberals leftists and progressives still support this asshole and the dems in general. I really dont.
I’m undecided if I am the indentured servant or the quaking vassal?????
Where the hell is Thomas Paine when you need him?????
The education system in america is trully scary. It basically collapsed. In fact ive been reading some articles about changes trying to be made within it and they talk about how the american school system is designed to create serfs. Which it still does. Sort of. So whats their to change in it. Egatz!
@sixgill: DW doesn’t hand out kudos very often. I’m jealous.
Wanna chip in and buy him a jersey????
I thought Obama was the One True Leftist — didn’t he invoke Gandhi and King in a recent speech?
You mean Fred Gandhi and Don King????
Nice to see you back on the boards. ;-)
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/03/02/obama_likens_himself_to_gandhi_and_nelson_mandela.html
If one was to read a version of US history that was anything other than the approved version of US propaganda, it would become glaringly evident that the concept of democracy in this country has been an illusion for a large portion of its existence. The history is much different when written by our victims, rather than the victors.
I’ll second that!!
;~DW
In the 1970s, not only was a guaranteed annual income talked about by politicians, the Nixon administration conducted test programs in a few cities. The program was dropped when the results showed that a guaranteed annual income increased the divorce rate; think carefully why this might be, especially in 1970.
Lame or not, the political strategy this year seems to be to drive the Republicans further into their fringe by moving toward their positions. And the President’s behavior over the past three years lends credibility to those positions. If this strategy succeeds, it could shut the Republicans out of national politics until they move away from their extreme positions and crazy talkers; my guess is they lose the Republican base if they do it. Which would position the Democrats as the business party once again (they’ve been there before). Which provides space for a left populist party, if anyone can organize an effective one (we’ve been here before as well). Not saying it’s gonna happen, but if it does it time to third party 2014.
@sixgill @7 Brilliant statement. I think we’re sorta in political doldrums until the political culture changes, which Occupy Wall Street locations are working on.
Gandhi and King leftists? Did you get J. Edgar’s files?
Being left-handed doesn’t make him a “Leftist”.
“Far from changing this conversation, the online progressive movement of the past several years hasn’t really even arrested the forward motion.”
Thats because the “online” progressive movement has SOLD OUT… liberals and progessives… right along with the Democratic party. The list of those who have betrayed us and sold us out gets longer and longer by the day.
After all… how can they ever have ANY affect on our corrupt government if when the time comes to actually DO SOMETHING… they instead kick their “beliefs” into the dirt… and they shill, promote and suck up to corrupt Democratic politicians.
In the most brain dead act of all… they actually advocate VOTING FOR the corrupt scoundreld who are screwing us and the country.
They have had plenty of time to align themselves with… Independents… and the Green Party… but instead they have sat on there butts and done NOTHING. They could have offered a real alternative… instead all they’ve done is whine and complain like a bunch of two year olds… and then SHILL for the scoundrels who are playing us. They are more interested in getting corrupt politicians elected than the wealfare of the country.
Of all the betrayals of liberal and prgressives… the most sinister and disgusting has been the betrayal by those claiming to represent us and speak for us. They dont represent us. They’re wimps and sellouts.
You may be right. But my experience is that these Obamabots support and will vote for Obama because he is Obama and not on the logic or lack thereof in his speech or actions. “They just knee-jerk. Obama is good. Anything he says is right.”
Why are we waiting for OWS? Why are we waiting until 2014?
P.S., Are you suggesting that Obama is playing Eleven Dimensional Chess by adopting the Republicans’ Conservatism just to drive them nuts? I hope not.
Serfs? With NCLB, the prime directive of the US education system is to create cannon fodder.
It’s pathological. I’ve said many times that political partisanship in the U.S. today should be classified as a thought disorder. The Obots are as bad as the Bush Dead-Enders.
I agree. In fairness, the U.S. president has enormous power and can frequently get otherwise good people to do bad things on his behalf. It’s not an excuse: everyone is accountable at the end of the day but it part of the explanation anyway.
You know, THD, I have great respect for all that you are doing. BUT every once in a while you make a statement that just floors me.
I’ll try a tinyurl version:
http://tinyurl.com/7huqv5u
The original url may have too many slashes in it or something.
“… the online progressive movement of the past several years hasn’t even arrested the forward motion.”
Tell me David, do you write for a “progressive” blog?
It is NOT the function of the “online progressive movement” to “stop” the madness, rather it is to fashion the fulcrum, the narratives that allow “the people” to understand what has happened, to serve or “play” the roll that Tom Paine served … and, when the people fully understand and find the requisite courage to accompany that understanding … then they, the people, will be the lever, the means of change.
The “progressives” do not need to “lead” they simply have to point the way and clear the path … the notion of “leadership” must change, even as Occupy daily demonstrates.
DW
There are a slew of Obots on TBogg’s post in.re. Obama’s “Gift to the Health Insurance Industry” that masquerades as health care reform, including TBogg. I thought I’d clicked on DailyKos or Huffpo by mistake.
Yeah, I think it was the multiple slashes in the URL. You aren’t up against a mod but a filtering algorithm probably designed to prevent spam submissions.
Every time I think of something right on the money, somebody beats me to it. Well said, Janeane.
This thread has called out such good and accurate comments. 0 is a ‘centrist’ if you were to look at the political spectrum in 1988, otherwise he is buried in the center of the far right. Many people don’t care about actual programs and policies, they just care about feeling the power. I will mention it again, Chris Hedges writes about it in The Death of the Liberal Class.
We shall have to see if that happens … this time, independentvoternews.
Let Firedoglake be the test case.
FDL says it will endorse no candidate.
Will it yet begin to cover alternative possibilities?
Or does FDL hold that there are no viable alternatives, not simply candidates, but other necessary actions, other jobs that need to be done?
Supporting Occupy is one thing … are there other “things”, and people, in equal need of mutual support and encouragement?
Your hypothesis is going to be sorely tested, independentvoternews, and we shall, then, see what we shall see … and if it is as you suggest …then we shall see what people choose to understand and choose to do.
DW
Bingo. This is obviously the strategy, to basically play a game of chicken with the GOP daring them to go further and further to the right extreme and occupying whatever ideological ground they cede as they move rightward. It’s actually sound although completely unprincipled game theory, hardly a great intellectual achievement or remotely 11th dimensional. If you have no ideological basis whatever it in fact makes perfect sense. Both sides know what the other side will do in advance; the Republicans win the ideological war while losing the electoral battles. The country moves rightward while the Democrats get to be the officeholders enacting Republican policies.
It’s not eleven-dimension chess at all. It’s pretty straight-forward cynical politics. I did express my doubts about it working. But that’s how I read what the Obama campaign is doing.
DW, I think that Jane and the firepups were burned too many times by putative progressive candidates. Many went to actblue and sang their songs of ‘Hope’ and ‘Change,’ but when the sweet talking was done they were two-faced, worrisome things and the real blue was the blues in the night. I now see no actblue begging this campaign season.
Obama is to the right of Ronald Reagan, and still seems to miss that our current screwed up economy is the full culmination of Reagan’s voodoo economics.
The only time he even sounds like a Democrat is before an election. And the positions he takes now that Republicans took twenty years ago – were wrong twenty years ago.
Thirty five year life time Democratic voter, not going to vote for Obama.
Maybe you’ve not noticed it, but getting political support to win 175,000 votes for a candidate takes a little time. It’s not just a matter of naming a candidate with a certain platform and spending some money for ads. Most places there is not much of an existing third party movement and certainly not one with enough of a coalition to win much of anything. That movement would have to be built from scratch in those areas.
As for OWS, they’ve accomplished some amazing things with the political culture in six months but it is not enough reach the tipping point for changing the American political culture. There is not going to be an progress electorally until the political culture changes.
Both of these take time, and my saying 2014 is optimistic for being able to win instead of just going through the motions one more time.
The front page of FDL seems oddly disconnected from the diarists. The front page writers seem to largely be O-bots whereas the diarists are equally largely less partisan and more ideologically principled.
It’s funny (in an unfunny way) to see a putatively fiercely progressive website in apparent thrall to warmed over Republican policies because they are advocated by people we are told are “on our side”.
Kurt, you and TD have plainly laid out the answer to the question: “Why does politics, in America, always seem to move to the “right”?
Cynical political expediency, of the most pragmatic Machiavellian type, just as TD suggests @68.
Well done, the both of you!
DW
My statement was a hypothetical about there being a larger opening for a left populist party if it succeeded. I think that’s a valid analysis.
Could you please define what you mean by “working?”
As may be, BearCountry, time will tell. Yet, does FDL, which terms itself “a leading progressive news site”, not perceive a need of a wider vision? Beyond the confines of a failed and failing “buy-partisan” framework?
Even if alternatives may not be successful immediately, waiting until they become viable before FDL will even mention them OR seek to support them seems, to me, to be short-sighted, and narrow-focused.
That is not a condemnation, but merely an observation … and a genuine concern.
DW
Yeah….thought I said that….
“Will it yet begin to cover alternative possibilities?”
YET… thats the problem.
We’ve now had over 3 years of betrayal, lies, insults, backroom corruption, corruption by wealthy special interests, secrecy, war, death, drones, fraud, no one held accountable for the financial crisis, lies and more lies, and scoundrel politicians mistrepresenting themselves and who they are are and who they represent.
And… YET… nothing.
NOTHING WILL CHANGE… nothing… until we stop electing corrupt politicians. The American people are fed up. The American people want REAL change. One would think that those claiming to represent liberals and progresives would be in favor of real change. One would think that those claiming to represent us would be screaming at the top of their lungs for alternative candidates and partys… so we are no longer forced to chose between two and only two scoundrels.
And yet… nothing.
“no viable alternatives”… of course there are’nt if you dont support them and advocate for them. And anyone who decides there are no viable alternatives… then that means theyve given up… and the corrupt scoundrels have won. Youve QUIT on the country. And anyone doing that… no longer has any right to complain… about anything.
Not me. I’m not giving up.
Democrats have no ideology. Pretty much never have. Always have been a coalition of incompatible ideas. That’s what a lot of folks miss. Progressive ideas were dominant during the New Deal because there was a strong Socialist Party (and other parties) and because the labor movement was pushing the political envelope. The Republican party took away a lot of rank-and-file labor with its wedge issues (indeed that was part of the purpose of the wedge issues and still is). The patriotic rank-and-file labor members also were turned off in 1972 by McGovern’s adopting an antiwar plank. Only since Scott Walker fired up Wisconsin has the labor rank-and-file been somewhat energized.
That left the remaining parts of the Democratic coalition to take control, and by being the losers so frequently chase what it was the winners were doing.
The efforts by the progressive blogosphere in the Democratic party was an attempt to restore progressive ideas in the coalition, ideas that were given lip service by a minority of Democratic elected officials but were not central to the party. I think as of the debt crisis last year, one can say that that attempt completely failed.
By working, I mean actually driving the GOP into extinction by 2016. Or having shattered the conservative base of the GOP, causing it to drift back toward the center or even trying to flank Democrats on the left (remember the “liberal wing” of the Republican Party that pushed hard for civil rights legislation).
There is huge and growing potential for an ideologically left party to emerge. There are already a whole passel of core issues where solid majorities poll to left of the Democrats. The Democrats obviously feel they can manage that risk knowing firstly that if the economy continues to limp along people will be hesitant to make that leap and of course confident that the resources required to start up a new party are immense and represent a possibly insurmountable barrier.
The emergence of a new left party will have to wait until some threshold of popular discontent is exceeded. The internet is the wild card- it could possibly lower the ante to join the game in a serious way from hundreds of millions of dollars to mere tens of millions if it cannot be managed and controlled in a way that limits people’s access to ideas that challenge and threaten the corrupt status quo. If the economy dramatically worsens the emergence of a new party of the left is almost inevitable, and I think it could coalesce faster than most would think.
Know any politicians who aren’t to some degree Machiavellian?
Well, ’tis, always, a matter of degree, and I’ll wager that you’ll agree, TD.
There are egos and then there are sociopaths …
Best were there NO career politicians, only citizens willing to serve a brief and honest term, not men and women on the make, on the take, and all for their own wee sakes …
DW
The saddest part is o climbed Martin Luther King Jr’s sacrifice to his position. All that work and moral integrity shit on for the one percent.
Just look at that sad statue to his memory, like is was done on purpose to just to shit on King by the 1%ers.
The closest we presently seem to have to Non-machiavellians are the religious right and the Bircher-Libertarian right. They are more ideological and seemingly less concerned with the next election cycle than the Romney-Obama orthodoxy who are almost pure Machiavellians.
If I wasn’t absolutely sure that you know far more about the history of politics than I do, THD, I would ask you to share some of your stash.
Yep.
Tell you and the diarists what you can do.
Go start your own blog and see how big of a following of “real progressives” that you attract. Then you can spend all day whining about how corrupt Obama and politicians are and how, as God is your witness, you’re going to shake things up.
Within three months you won’t be able to tell the difference between your blog and Red State.
DWBarto… Bravo !
Excellent comment.
I am a firm believer in citizen candidates. My 90yearold grandmother could run the country better that the entire group of corrupt politians running it now. Citizen candidates would have more common sense and a better understanding of what the problems of the country are… and better… real solutions.
That would be election strategy. It doesn’t explain 3 years of Conservative governance. Obama is acting like a Conservative because Obama IS a Conservative.
I think you are mistaken. The country already wants Progressive reform. We were ready for transformational change in 2008 and that’s why we elected Obama. And we still are ready, though now we’re angry and confused by the betrayal from Obama and the Democrats we elected to effectuate it. But we are regrouping and now we see clearly with the steely eyes of righteousness that there is nothing to wait for. I remember the Fierce Urgency of Now in 2008: it was true then and it is even more true today. The time is now, not 2014.
So you say…if you dont like it… then just leave.
Is that what it’s come to? Thats your response?
That doesnt seem to leave much room for other peoples points of view.
“Within three months you won’t be able to tell the difference between your blog and Red State.” I dont believe that would be the outcome at all… especially if Kurt would just stand up for what he claims to believe in.
tbogg is for BHO
FWIW, I can’t name one front pager whom I would call an O-bot. Am I missing something?
bo associating himself with MLK really saddens me. Hearing him use King-like intonation really irks me.
thank you
important article
This idea that we must wait for the opportune moment to launch a new Progressive Third Party seems misguided to me. Every step Left is a step forward. Whether it comes by an OWS-inspired new political party, an emergence of the Greens or the Justice Party, the Democratic Party moving towards Progressivism again, or even the GOP moderating — it doesn’t matter because the net effect is that the country moves Left.
One of the more cynical features of the 2012 election, pointed out by other commenters is that Team Obama wants the GOP and the GOP candidate to be as extreme Right Wing as possible, Yes, in a Machiavellian analysis from the point of view of the candidate, that is perfectly sensible and probably defensible. But we are not the candidate: we are the American People and we are rightfully concerned with what is best for us, not for any candidate.
Obama’s greatest failing — among many — has been the complete failure to move the country Left on anything significant. Indeed, it is probable that the country has become more Conservative under Obama than it was under Bush, certainly the DC Bubble has moved Right. And THAT is a remarkable and terrifying feat. Worst of all, the American People want to adopt Progressive politics but our elected officials — including most prominently, our Democratic president — are preventing us from doing so. It is astonishing.
There are several historical parallels. The earliest. Jefferson undid the Federalist Party in two terms by taking a centrist position. The Democratic-Republicans became more corporate-oriented but persisted until Jacksonian populism flanked the Democratic-Republicans from the left with a populist movement.
The liberal movement that began with FDR moved the Republican Party leftward in the Eisenhower administration and the liberal Republicans (Jacob Javits and others) flanked the Democrats on the left on civil rights, which caused the Democrats to support the Civil Rights movement during 1960-1964–which was the center of American politics then preserving their left flank in the LBJ election. The populist movement that mattered in the late 1960s were the white workers who were offended at folks who did not support the war and who reacted to court-ordered desegregation of schools, jobs, and housing by supporting George Wallace. Nixon flanked Wallace on the right as the center came to the conclusion that the Democrats had gone off the cliff on the left. LBJ fended of Goldwater by painting him as extreme; Nixon did the same with the Democratic Party that Humphrey was shackled to. That sort of flanking was what the Southern Strategy was all about. And it reconstituted the Republican Party as a conservative party.
This here is a progressive, not a redstater. Redstaters don’t look like progressives. Who told you this was a redstater, son? Nice boy, but doesn’t listen to a thing you say. You got a bum steer, son. I’m a progressive, not a schnook. You’re wrong, son.
No… independentvoternews. Seriously, why are you hanging out here and not changing the world at Independent Voter News? Near as I can tell from the comments here, there are millions of progressives practically begging for brilliant insights into the corrupt world of American politics. Why be a fly in the ointment, when you can be the Big Kahuna of your own personal Fantasy Tidal Wave of Progressive Change?
Thank you. I greatly prefer flanking on the left.
To get citizen politicians, who see public office as a civic responsibility and not a profession, you have to change the political culture. And not just philosophically but in a whole lot of practical ways dealing with the technocratic language of government, the inside jargon, the overly complicated legislation–not to mention the professional perks of retirement and other bennies.
BHO is an embarrassment to the progressives that voted for him,i wanted to write to his daughters,telling them how their parents,never took a stance to save the environment they will live in
My mistake… the unrealistic expectations, My Dream Date Liberal World, followed by frothing at the mouth and bitter recriminations when they not attained must be what threw me off.
OK. Might’ve misphrased that. Replace O-bots with people who take the partisan electoral kabuki as more than the dog and pony show it mostly is and write as if an Obama-Romney contest and the surrounding circus will be anything more than a pair of ideological ciphers saying whatever they think will advance their personal political careers.
Actually, it means that 20 years ago, they’d be firmly on the right… since Republicans proposed these ideas. And the individual mandate was wrong as a policy soution then too. But I’m sure he knows that, he just doesn’t want to say it.
In US politics today there is nothing that is not part of an election strategy. Republican obstructionism was a campaign strategy, so was Obama’s positioning. Obama has told folks over and over that he was not ideological. That means that he is seeking the widest political center possible. And after 30 years of Reaganism, that center is well to the conservative side.
That’s just the way the candidate-driven, media-focused political culture has worked for the past two decades.
Me too. Up to a point.
Speaking for me only, I don’t mind someone sticking it up my ass once in a while about how much worse the other guys are.
TBogg, what’s your point, that we should all get behind 0 and work real hard and everything will turn out just great? Are you saying that there should be no criticisms of 0 and the dims on this site? Are you saying that all who don’t work for 0 here should be banned, and there is no room for any but true believers?
That is wrong. The American People favor Progressive policies overwhelmingly on nearly every major issue. That “America is Center-Right” slogan is a myth propagated by the plutocrats. And Obama is losing the Left, whether he believes it or not. It is a losing strategy even in purely Machiavellian terms: certainly the past 3 years must have taught Obama this. Which makes me think it is actually ideological.
how much worse are they?They promote the unending conventional (non)wisdom
argh!@#$@#$%#$%!!!!!!!!!
x2
sounds like that,or leave the country/blog
Hahahahahaha
Twenty years ago, they were the alternative to Hillarycare. I’m not sure they were necessarily to the right of Hillarycare, given what that complicated mess looked like. The center is moveable. Compared to where the center was in the 1970s, both Hillarycare and Romneycare are on the right. But regardless of ideological position, both are corporatist plans. As is the ACA.
Just a little extra. If Nixon were to run today, he would be the most liberal of all the candidates. He did do some things that would be in the repug right, but he also did much that would be wildly to the left of any dim politician now on the scene. The last politician that would be considered a real progressive or leftist would be Paul Wellstone, and you see what happened to him.
Exactly right.
up the thread,THartmann exposes Americans pay lowest corp taxes,have widest income disparity……and ridiculous health spending
does anbody ever talk about this on MM
Worked for Obama against Hillary, no? Kinda?
rarrarrarah rararrraaaah yea America
lets make sure our politicians always have Cadilac Healthcare
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!
Hillary,BHO,Mittens(which i coined) whats the diff?
plus ca change
See Zinn’s “A People’s History of the United States”
Why don’t they vote that way? And why do they vote for the folks who position themselves where Obama has positioned his administration? Issue polling is missing something. My guess it is the fact that politicians position themselves relative to the electoral map and not to the national average opinion in opinion polls. And it also has to do with positioning straddling issues so as to pull voters from both sides.
The US is not a center-right nation. That category might apply to Congress, but folks who are not political activists do not think in those categories. Yes, my experience is that most people when they know the details of an issue do tend toward populist approaches instead of corporatist ones. But that does not translate to Congressional elections. But folks, at least around here, are nowhere nearly toward the FDR side as they were thirty years ago.
Yep, he tried to cultivate that widespread middle too. Kill OEO and pass EPA.
Uh, they DID vote that way. If Obama had positioned his campaign the way he has positioned his administration, he might not have been elected. IMHO
How much left is out there right now? And more importantly, how geographically spread are they? Can they help him in Missouri? Indiana? He can lose a lot of left in California to pick up center-right in Ohio.
please tell me after 3 1/2 years,what has changed for the better ostensibly
We’ll never find out because he won’t run on anything popular with the people. He will give folks no promises. He will run against the Rs.
It’s the vote for Congress that is crucial. Always. And folks voted in Obama but did not vote in a Congress that would deliver what he promised. Plus there were two huge stumbling blocks in the Senate on just about everything–Max Baucus, chair of Finance and Kent Conrad, chair of Budget. If you want legislation on anything, you have to keep them on your side. Baucus drove HealthCare; Conrad drove Simpson-Bowles.
And people did not vote for a more progressive Congress in 2008. Nor did they vote for a more progressive Congress in 2010.
I don’t think you can assume a uniform “they” who voted. Some folks voted for Obama because Sarah Palin was so obviously unqualified to be Vice President. Some folks voted for a Democrat because the Republicans screwed up the economy. If the economic collapse had not happened in October, Obama likely would not have won or won by a whisker.
They do vote that way… they elected Obama because he promised change.
Thats what the American people wanted.
But then all we got was more corruption… and no change.
We’ll never find out because lefty candidates will not present themselves for office and run aggressively. Where are the Vito Marcantonios of today? If there are 175,000 lefties in a Congressional District, they select the member of Congress if they go vote and if a lefty candidate stands for office.
honestly??????????????? do you really think people KNOW what the hell they are voting for?not the people i come in contact with
i remember the looks of adoration in their eyes,i guess mine too…he sounded sooooooo good….2 daughters facing the future with him….then he took Sasha swimming in the gulf…..Carney much?
Not wait. Start working now to win in 2014 or 2016. It’s too late in the election cycle to do much at the national level. There are things like filing deadlines and recruiting candidates and setting up an election strategy. That takes time to do from scratch, and third party efforts are all the time starting from scratch.
okay back to my Lubitch movie…enuf
“unrealistic expectations”… ?
So let me get this straight. You are claiming that liberal/progressives who believe that our elected officials should be honest… and not corrupt… are unrealistic ?
And you are claiming that liberal/progressives who believe that those who caused and benifited from the financial crisis should be held accountable… is unrealistic ?
And you are claiming that liberal/progressives who believe in real solutions to the countries problems rather than the corrupt back rooms deals given us by our corrupt politicians… are unrealistic…?
And on and on and on and on and on…
Then you dont represent liberal/progresssives. You quit on us. You are an appeaser. You let the scoundrels win. You have given up… and thrown your so called “beliefs” in the dirt… which you obviously never believed in to begin with.
We are commenting as if voting is done in a truly neutral environment. We can’t get to see how the voting machines actually work. Hacking the vote seems to be an easy option. I wouldn’t be surprised if the final vote is already in the bag and the whole exercise is just to keep a curtain over the man operating the machine. Time and again we see voting results that don’t add up to the apparent public expressions. Exit polling is now verboten. al gore and john kerry rolled over on recounts. kerry did it without a second thought. It took gore a little while, but either his lawyers didn’t know the recount law or he just gave up. The ones who control the voting machines control the vote.
Well, if it can be explained in simple, plain English, straight out, just like that, then perhaps, just perhaps, the people will remember those lines from the Declaration of Independence:”…that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to affect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, persuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them to utter despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government and to provide new guards for their security.”
DW
WRONG… anyone in the country can vote for Jill Stein – Green party candidate… or write in any candidate of your choice.
THATS what the Democrats and Republicans dont want you to know… because that lessens the chane of one of their corrupt politicians getting elected.
You bought into his campaign story. People voted for him for a variety of reasons.
And to be a little cynical here, he did bring change – a Democratic president who will put Social Security and Medicare on the table, whether it was serious or a negotiating gambit. Bill Clinton pulled that with welfare reform, and that was change too.
But every one of those 63 million people that voted for him was not a progressive nor did every one want single payer of the US out of Afghanistan. There is a lot of progressive projection relative to Obama’s constituency.
Progressive were marginal then and are marginal now. But Obama has ensured against loss of progressive votes by taking as much to the right of center as he can.
If progressives want to be other than marginal, they can build their numbers and their geographic diversity. If you have 65 million progressives, you elect a President. Do you know 65 million folks in the lefty blogosphere altogether? My sense is that it’s a market of about a couple million on a good day. Maybe someone in the FDL office knows.
We have an immense amount of work to do to get progressive government.
Here in bear country I get a ‘progressive’ radio station from NYC and Thom is on from 3 PM to 5 or 6 PM (I never listen toward the end). He will point out some real problem that is actually caused by the dims or abetted by the dims, and then swing back to complete support of 0 and the dims. Ed Shultz is on the station from 12 noon to 3 PM, and he does the exact same thing. I can’t even read talking points memo.
Ding. Ding. Ding. Just writing a declaration doesn’t make it happen either.
Great discussion but it doesn’t change a thing about the reality of what is happening, and it won’t until enough refuse to cooperate and sustain it.
The complete utter deal breaker for me is the NDAA, the culmination of years of treason. You can now be killed arbitrarily for whatever reason they choose.
I realize that their have been many assassinations both covert and not, but to write it into law is shocking to put it mildly.
Obviously the war on terror is a war on us. Most of what you read, what you see in all forms of media is a lie or a manipulation of the truth to get an expected result.
I come here because of the quality of the writing and the intelligence of you all. I don’t fit, which is okay, I just take a different tack.
I don’t see, as some of you, that this can be fixed from within…I don’t have an answer, nor do I think that what I think matters except in the personal. It sure as hell is a great time to be alive
o is a disaster, b n’ c clinton would be a disaster. romney and their ilk are ostensibly human but you could fool me.
A citizen statesman is truly a great idea. Why can’t we just say to all those beyond the beltway..you are all null and most definitely void and elect our own government..this one certainly does not listen to a word we utter.
And all here are quite capable of governing themselves..we don’t need people who who prey, kill, and torture us as our leaders. Hell if we were animals they would all be arrested for cruelty to animals.
Where are the Green Congressional candidates in NC that can help Stein turn out the vote? Where are the Green candidates for legislature? County commissions? If Stein wins, without a change in Congress you will have the same problems you have with Obama. That’s why it takes time to build a movement. This is a lesson that Greens have not learned over the past 30+ years. Local and state candidates increase the turnout for national candidates. Reverse coattails are as important as Presidential coattails.
I didn’t expect a real progressive when I voted for 0. I just thought that he wouldn’t go as quickly down the road that he has taken. I knew that the govt would use the new toys to track us and snoop in our computers eventually, but I thought that 0 would not rush to do it. I actually believed that he would be a little more transparent and balanced in his policies. The truth is that he is worse and has done more damage to the ordinary person in America than w did.
That is exactly why the Occupy Wall Street movement is growing. Excellent rant.
I’m with you on that. How do we get out of this mess?
said it better than I, no more skimming comments..
uhhhhhhhhhhm
we are animals,not vegetables or minerals,but the vegetables are debatable about some…G …hi Maddy good writing
and thats why ,they are paid the big bux
however we can take their flow charts,and practical figures
their conclusion is bought and paid for,therefore unmoving
Any voter can vote for whomever they choose.
In the midterm election… I DID NOT VOTE FOR ANY corrupt Democrats or corrupt Republicans.
I voted for Independents [not affiliated with any political party]… Green Party candidates… and Reform Party candidates… and in the two races where I had no choice other than a corrupt Democrat or corrupt Republican I wrote in a candidate.
If you choose to vote for corrupt D’s or R’s then you have no one to blame but yourself for our corrupt government. YOU voted for them. YOU put them in office. YOU rewarded them for their corruption. YOU did it.
TD… do the right thing… stop voting for these scoundrels.
change means change from the W missadministration…please tell me the difference
I wish that I really knew what to do. For instance, I live here in a very conservative area. Many of the people hate 0 because he is listed as a dim. They don’t really care what his policies are in terms of doing what they want if instituted by a repug. One of the locals ran for mayor as a dim and was soundly trounced. I have talked to some of the dim party members and they like 0 and his policies.
I’m not sure that starting at the bottom to build a party would work on a locality by locality basis. I think that we need a person that is well known and has somewhat of a following that is committed to long term goals. Without the center pole I think that there would not be enough energy to maintain a long term commitment. OWS is a wonderful attempt to change the convesation, but their major thrust is simply to hang on. I think many of them would be turned off by attempting to use their energy for a new party. Anyway, I’m not sure that we would be able to get a party going and recognized. I think that the Constitution has been so hollowed out that its main function is to keep the forms of govt without the ability to affect the power structure. I know that I’m pessimistic, but I feel that the ptb have effectively isolated all of us that realize what has happened to the country.
What does or will it take, TD?
I ask, knowing that you are one of the best strategists it has even been my genuine privilege to encounter.
The prime requisite is informed and wise courage, premised on the foreknowing that it will take more than a little, time, effort, and let us be very honest, more than a little blood, and sweat, and tears … and the inspiration … which is for the daring dreamers to share so very well that others may actually feel and taste the truth and reason of the visions of a better time and place …
I now listen most attentively, TD, to whatever you may have to say about how to move beyond the words … beyond the thoughts, to the deeds and actions necessary …
DW
Only if the ones I voted for win.
Which of the folks you voted for won? Have they met your expectations? Will you vote for them again?
do you know who hosted the morning programs?…one was a semi journalist,one had a black guy pee on her to attain fame.and the last was an ex beauty queen/partial governor.
All make tens of millions of dollars exactly why i havent figured out.
That is what America is interesred in.
To which morning programs are you referring? I can easily figure out the third person, but not the program. The first two, I have no clue.
NBC had the peequeen
,Katie was on GMAmerica,and Moosehunter was on Today
And now it is about time I bow out for the night. It has been a very interesting exchange of ideas. I think that I have had a great opportunity to see the thoughts of some fine thinkers and analysts. I have to get up early to get young BearCountry off to school. Mrs. BearCountry has already moved to dreamland for the night and the cats are curled up somewhere. Good night, all.
The two-party was conceived of as an adversarial system, somewhat like courtroom proceedings. But Obama refuses to be an adversary. Instead, he’s an ice-cream vendor.
for the Democratic leader to have co-opted a whole bunch of Republican plans on the biggest economic issues of the day, represents the clear fact that the Democratic Party has ideologically become akin to where a moderate Republican would have stood in the 1960s…
And to the right of where a moderate Republican would have stood in the 1970s. Remember Nixon’s healthcare bill called for employer (not individual) mandates, and that bill was in reaction to Ted Kennedy’s National Health Insurance bill. It gets crazy than that, Kennedy’s two lead co-sponsors on the single payer bill were Republicans… Senators John Sherman Cooper of Kentucky and William Saxbe of Ohio.
I know that I have said that I’m gone, but I have to know who the NBC person was and did she have it done on screen or what? What was her point?
sweet dreams,we will do better, together
http://www.celebitchy.com/3308/kim_kardashians_sex_tape_is_going_to_be_released_on_march_21_nsfw_or_under-18/
Boy-oh do I know your kind of situation. The Occupy Wall Street movement is the only optimistic thing I see at the moment and it is taken up with working on the political culture–particular penetrating the media Wurlitzer that prevents folks from recognizing what the issues are. The way that you do an Occupy movement is through the general assembly that has certain minimal ground rules. The focus is on both business and government corruption and how they intertwine. The group is inclusive, non-ideological, and non-partisan in its collective direction; individuals can be who they are. The general assembly uses a facilitated consensus method to identify issues and take a wide variety of forms of direct action — some dealing with issue directly bypassing government, some protesting (“assembling and petitioning government for the redress of grievances”). Meeting of the general assembly must be held frequently and regularly (weekly or more often) and there needs to be some sort of continuous presence so that folks know where to find you.
Actions include teach-ins bringing in folks who can explain in understandable terms how money is influencing politics of both parties and doing it for objectives contrary to the public will. Occupy Columbia SC had one on nuclear power in which those there learned that the governor and the nuclear power industry are trying to position SC for recycling nuclear wastes at the Savannah River plant.
General assembly includes a soapbox segment where folks can get all of their issues out regardless of position. It seems to have the effect of broadening understanding of issues and taking some of the acrimony out of political discussion. Like I said we are about changing the political culture and uniting the 99% into a movement. Whatever happens with electoral politics happens out of that in a organic fashion appropriate to that community.
What I said about third parties was for those who see that as an effective way to go where they are.
ha ha..thanks
Where is the soul of FDL, truly? Used to be solid Team Dem, and many of us chafed at the obtuseness of that, and took a lot of shit for our dissent. Then, Jane seemed to “get it,” and signaled very clearly that she was taking FDL in a new direction that would be post-duopoly, and issues-based in focus and character. That was all happening as the transition to membership was consummated. I and many others were inspired and reinvigorated to see that. But now we are in the crunch of election season, and the recent dramas and tensions here all seem to point up the fact that many of the old hands, front-pager, and staff are still Team Dem to their core. Every Team Dem vote cancels out the vote of a FDLer that has bought into Jane’s new direction message. So, there is obviously ground here for a solid and honest debate here at FDL: Do we want to be like Kos, and go along with the old hands in, essentially, rejecting Jane’s move to not be slaves of the Dem Party anymore, or do we want to unify under the over-arching principle of supporting progressive issues and ideas, and not facilitating and enabling continued Dem abuse of our interests as progressives and regular people? If we could have that debate civilly, on the honest merits, and come to a consensus, then FDL could be a much more potent political force going forward than if we continue to be against ourselves internally, and determined to cancel out each others’ electoral strategies. Can we get beyond our personality disputes and FINALLY get to the merits of this big issue? And, what does Jane think?
great!…but i dont go to the beach anymore
None of them won… dupes like you elected a bunch of corrupt politicians again… and then you wonder why nothing changes.
Einstein was right… insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I dont buy into the winning is everything no matter what the cost meme… it’s bs. I stand up for what I believe in… and if liberal/progressives would stop being dupes and wimps and rally behind an alternative candidate… it would be a shot heard round the world… and would be the beginning of real change. It’s not like we are a small number… and there are 24 million registered Independents who are desperate for an alternative as well.
Why do you all fear change…?
can you imagine how radical FDR was? and the scion of an old Dutch family.He had real balls
I already can’t tell the difference between YOUR blog and RedSate, since you banned me twice rather than honestly debate the lack of wisdom of your unreasoning Obamabot fervor. That’s what RedState and Kos do, isn’t it? All you ever do is tell people to shut up, that they are crazy, or to go start their own blog. None of those constitute any kind of honest attempt to debate the wisdom of being pro-Obama as opposed to choosing any other option. And you know it. What are you so afraid of? It’s not like we are gonna take your civil liberties away. Obama already took those. You and people like you are the problem now. Instead of helping lead a resistance, you are serving the master of the house. You are, in essence, a Tory.
See Comment #88. You are missing a lot, apparently. And, frankly, you are waaaay too smart to be missing it.
Yeah, TBogg. You suck.
You’ve really been stinking up the FDL site lately.
How do you educate kids, adults..not necessarily to to just mouth your agenda, but how to think, as in say the Socratic method, which I am not totally familiar with, but I understand by dint of years how to figure things out with critical thinking. Those are the things our children are being deprived of, so they have no tools to arm themselves with. The occupy movement teaching should include this if it doesn’t already. We have a huge movement in Redding..not, but the point is that we have one.
I ask this as an addendum to your comment. And this has to be all inclusive as you say, they have divided us we’ve let them do it. Anyway these are some of the things your comment made me think of.
Sorry, I could write forever.
If none of them won, how do you know that they would not disappoint you like Obama has done?
My county has “nonpartisan” elections. I have had the experience of voting for someone who sounded pretty progressive, relative to other candidates. And yes, they continued to express progressive opinions in meetings and in speeches. But they also were in the pockets of local developers. Something I wouldn’t have known about had they lost. Needless to say I did not vote for them again. But they are still there.
The problem with that 24 million independents figure is that to win the Presidency likely will take 65 million votes this year. And those 24 million can’t agree on a candidate. There are independents who are to the right of the Tea Party; there are independents who are really committed to one of the duopoly parties; there are independents who would find the Green Party too reformist.
What’s with this “dupes like you” ad hominem? The fact is that progressives do not have the numbers in enough places to be able to punish Obama for the way he governed. So for progressives, the presidential end of the ballot for 2012 is pretty much irrelevant. But the downticket offices are not, and in some places Democrats have not put up candidates at all.
Winning isn’t everything, but if you don’t win you can’t control the government. It’s that simple. To change policies and laws, you have to win.
FDR saved capitalism from itself. In the context of his times, he was centrist. We not fortunate enough to have an energetic labor movement and a Socialist Party at the peak of its political popularity. Liberal, but not radical.
I would be on the side that doesn’t slavishly follow assholes who create laws that can sign my death warrant. you go dems without me. I am in the party of the human race in the best sense of that word.
That is one of the things the bully pulpit is for, isn’t it, TD? You crush individual legislators who stand in your way by using the bully pulpit. Every day if necessary. No legislator could or would stand up to that. Obamam did not use it, because he did not want to achieve any non-corporatist result. He danced with the money that bought him, the corporate money, all the way down the line. That is what he is.
tru dat….but some of his friends,Presscott for one,tried to off him
word.his intentions were known to him,and some others here.me,not that savy
Before we may honestly “win”, we must win the hearts and the minds of the people … how long a time has it been, if ever, that such reality as that was understood and genuinely pursued?
Let us move beyond the cynical political calculus of of the present moment, for that is where all of us who truly care are headed.
We must make use of what the present offers us, as the Masters cannot help but reveal the paucity of their perceptions and their “fall back” on brute force and increasing violence to enforce their will … shall be lost on no one …
The people are not stupid, they may be cowed and frightened at the moment, but it shall become ever more clear to them that meaningful change is necessary at the most basic of human levels … both dignity and fundamental purpose will suggest that, not necessarily with eloquence, but with the most stark reality of experienced truth.
DW
In my experience, kids are pretty good at critical thinking until they get it stamped out of them. “Why is the sky blue?” is critical thinking. So is “Why do I have to do this?”
A lot of it is trying to figure out the most relevant questions to ask to get at a commonly perceived reality.
I’m not sure that’s much of an answer. But that is an excellent question relative to the Occupy movement, which has not had a lot of kids involved in the more visible locations. In fact, it was when parents started feeling that they could safely bring kids to see Zucotti Park or participate in OWS events that Mayor Bloomberg evicted them. Kids at events signals that it is safe. And builds involvement. Just as riot police signals that it is dangerous. And guys in hazmat suits signal that it is unsanitary.
He brought us Bush III. Nobody wanted that who voted for him. He pulled off a remarkably successful con job. He gets no credit for that from me, not ever.
Back in the days of FDR and LBJ, you didn’t crush recalcitrant members of Congress with the bully pulpit, you did it with control over campaign cash or pork. Politicians now are independent of that sort of control because they get much more funding from outside the party coffers. And they’ve sworn off pork.
But he was more competent than Bush /s
Well put, DW. You have to understand that the cynical calculus will not stop working for folks just because you are seeking an alternative. That is the stinkin’ thinkin’ you are up against. And a lot of pols don’t do it because they like it but after a bunch of wins they do it automatically. Mitt and Obama on the other hand do not do it automatically; you can see the tells. I guess that’s what’s called inexperienced.
IMO, the most effective way for people like us to punish Obama is to vote third party, preferably concentrating our votes as much as possible. That sends an unmistakeable “We’re DONE with you” message that can catch on very fast with the impetus of Occupy sentiment and technology behind it, and start to make some fear felt in D.C. We can do that this season, TD, and we should.
Well, now everybody should know, savvy or not.
Sure, but people have more than the three networks to get their news from now, and that is extremely powerful to magnify the effect of the bully pulpit. O did not choose to use it, plain and simple. He did not want to win any leftist results, that’s why. His money came from the corps he sold us out to.
Yes, cuz he had the camoflage of the D label working for him. but you know I won’t give him credit for that, either.
I consider, TD, that we well know what we are up against. I hold that the PTB and the MOTU, however, most definitely do not. NO matter how many of us they kill or destroy, there will … always … be those to take the place of the fallen. Not only do we far outnumber them, we shall out live and outsmart them, not by playing “games” of control, but by enlivening the human heart and freeing the human mind.
We will not do those things by words, but by example … even as we have learned and been inspired to be and become who we are and are yet to become …
Again, we both well know it will not be easy, yet I suggest that we, each of us, have been preparing for this time and this moment for all our lives, and not alone, but very much together.
The understanding of the human essence is not constrained by words or even by death … it is a universal yearning that courses through the soul of humankind, however much despots might wish to crush it, it will NEVER perish nor fade, forever, away … so long as human beings draw breath, it will and shall be so.
DW
The comment was NOT ad hominem…
Dupe means… “a person who functions as a tool for another person or power… to decieve an unwary person.”
Anyone who believes is to be a good idea to vote for corrupt politicians… just because they can get elected… with the obvious result being corruption…
Well then…that term would apply to them.
Voting every 2 or 4 year cycle only allows for two year cycle opportunities for voters to “punish.” Which they do.
Direct political action is superior, like screwing with AARP and messing with Standard & Poors, the orgs who are either in the fold or directors of legislative action.
Why the constant tears and hectoring on Prez politics, I just don’t get after the results of the last cycle. Mess with the puppeteers, not with the puppets.
Precisely so, Kelly.
Throw those velvet monkey-wrenches into the gears of the “machine” …
Disrupt the rituals, including the elections, not by violence, but by presenting ideas that catch hold and are passed quickly along, understandings and insights, that the Masters and their lackeys cannot anticipate or easily stymie.
DW
Kelly, why on earth would you assume it must be either/or? Both are good ideas, and both can be done simultaneously. Neither drains energy from the other. And we must adopt other tactics as well. Asymmetrical warfare of every kind we can imagine. I hope you did not think I meant just vote third party and then go back to sleep. I meant vote third party right now because that is something specific and focused that we can do right now, and if the idea catches on, with the help of technology and social media, by November it might send a HUGE message. It’s a pure win-win. Especially since Romney is essentially a clone of Obama.
That was beautiful..I have these thoughts
We will prevail in way so much higher of purpose as to boggle the present mind.
You put words in my mouth with the either/or dichotomy.
If you find it beneficial to spend your time hectoring on presidential vote positions, then more power to you.
I find such activity completely useless myself, and think screwing with S&P, just for starters, entirely more beneficial. I say “hurt from the root, vote from the gut” and if you want to make something else out of that position? Fine can’t stop you.
But I don’t really care what anybody thinks of that strategy as it’s entirely valid for me to act that way, regardless of the thoughts of the “purity popes” here.
Further, I don’t understand with your proclaimed ability as a stock index trader/advisor, and the knowledge that comes from that activity, why you don’t start a draft diary and catalog the top, say 100 of the S&P 500 with contact names and addresses and phone numbers.
FDL could take that info and turn it into action. I know from experience having done that with the 535 congressional offices.
Activism starts with knowledge, collecting it, spreading it and acting on it, not just griping about candidates.
Kelly, can you expand on this or provide links?
I would reply to your post but, as you pointed out with a profound grasp of proportion, Obama already took my civil liberties away.
So sad, here in the Obama Gulag. So sad….
Wonderful summary. Just two comments:
1) “Climate change” is itself a co=optation of the original, much more honest and descriptive term, “global warming.” Now even the term “climate change” is becoming taboo.
2) Bad as Rahm Emmanuel is, he is still better than his successor as Chief of Staff, Bill Daley, who combined a Chicago machine background with a soulless, wholly corporatist outlook. It was Daley who rejected support of the Wisconsin protests, asserting that such support would undermine Obama’s meaningless campaign of “Winning the Future.” (Daley’s great historical non-accomplishment, of course, is his complete botch of Al Gore’s presidential recount effort in 2000. Daley was the architect of Gore’s failed strategy of rejecting a statewide recount effort in favor of a piecemeal, county by county approach, thus leaving the door open for the Supreme Court’s infamous Bush v. Gore decision).
You are right, but so many rank-and-file Obamabots are entirely well meaning but misguided. Their imperviousness to reality, to their own self-interest, I find heartbreaking.
x3
I was reading a defunct blog on black politics in Pennsylvania.
It said they used to consistently vote Republican. I didn’t know that. (it also said since the civil rights they’re mostly dem voters, but have been poorly represented by them and even elected blacks have been representative tokens or as corrupt as their white counterparts).
I agree with your statement on Dems consistently moving right and the conservatives moving even further right to distinguish themselves. I wonder if there will be a reordering or a change that would resemble something of magnetic flip.
I think the late Mary suggested progressives and lefties trying to take over the republican party.
I went looking for that comment but found this: These are embarrassing comments with all the Obama Love! http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/30/late-late-nite-fdl-yes-we-can/#comment-1705768
Maybe we could use them as blackmail or something.
Bingo… spot on.
This is exactly right. it’s the AIPAC strategy. Anyone who opens their mouth comes under the full weight of all they can muster.
Going after just the president is ineffective. We should kick the stool legs holding him up. The focus on the president is right where the PTB want it. They’ve got Mitt lined up to fill his seat.
Nancy Pelosi is might be a better target. She is a massive fundraiser and a pro-israel/security state gatekeeper.
Rush Limbaugh is a good target. I heard the army was giving money to his radio show.
Ford stopped giving money to a climate denial Heartland Foundation because owners got behind the pressure campaign, also a reporter asked them in public why they donated money to them, while also marketing the prius.
Returning to the beginning:
“Obama Positions Himself as the One True Centrist in Fiscal Policy Speech”
Fine. Now let him have the “Centrists” elect him. We’ll see how Obama and the Democrats do without the Left that they disdain. They hate us so we hate them back. Anything else is unnatural.
I honestly have no more patience for folks who persist in the delusion that Obama has been “forced” to be a Conservative president. He hasn’t. This is the course he chose for himself and he’s done it in defiance of the American People writ large as well as his most ardent supporters from 2008 (who, notwithstanding revisionary history to the contrary, were Progressives). Just look at Obama’s Executive actions where he doesn’t need Congressional approval: on issue after issue he has curtailed economic and environmental and health regulations at the same time he has expanded the national security state. Face it: Obama is a Conservative. Worse, he is a deceiver who won’t even be honest about his Conservatism.
I am voting for Jill Stein and the Green Party in 2012 and I hope you will join me in this revolutionary act (or vote some other Third Party). We must reject the plutocrats’ political duopoly that serves the 1% and prevents the 99% from enacting the Progressive policies the American People want and the nation desperately needs. If that means Mitt Romney wins the presidency so what. Other that his team jersey and skin color, Romney is indistinguishable from Obama. Further, Obama has retarded Progressivism because partisan Democrats have found themselves conflicted in raising opposition to Obama’s Right Wing policies. In the worst cases, partisan Democrats have actually become hostile to Progressivism, which is self-destructive as Progressivism provides the philosophical foundation for the Democratic Party. Worst of all, Obama and his Administration have led these attacks on Progressives. There will be no such conflict or confusion protesting against Romney and the Progressive Movement will strengthen.
It is long past time we started thinking beyond the immediate election.
Barack Obama:
That poor dear!!! Barry adopts GOP positions and then whimpers when those awful GOP boys continue to call him names like “socialist.” What’s a poor president to do??? Sniff. Sniff.
Your first sentence certainly would lead one to believe you were rejecting my suggestion to vote third party. Anybody here can read your comment and make their own judgment. I’m not gonna play dishonest word games with you. “Purity popes”? Did you just pull that out of your ass? A Presidential election is upon us. When you ridicule those who think some attention should be paid to the Presidential vote, you make yourself look ridiculous.
You are just as qualified to Google that data as I am, or anybody else with a search window-why are you giving me homework assignments to further your ideas? How about if I use my energy in the way that seems best to me, which, right now, is convincing as many people as possible that the most effective political act they can do right now is to send a message of total rejection to the Democratic Party? You are free to send emails to the CEOs, I’m sure their secretaries will be glad to hear from you.
You would reply to my post, but you have no substantive argument to make to support your mindless Obamabotism, so you will run back to your site and hide where I cannot get at you. There, fixed it for ya. BTW, are you now in snark mode, or being serious? One never knows with you, do one? Rush plays that game too, a great way to avoid accountability.
Exactly right, you’ve been doing real good work lately. ;-)
Yeah, can you fucking believe it? Yet he expects support from liberals and progressives. “C’mon guys, cut your own throats, vote for me.” If I have to live with Rethug policies, I’d rather have them forced on me by a Rethug, so at least I don’t have to deal with a bunch of deluded allies, like the Obamabots.
realitychecker…
You are exactly right… you need to speak out here more often.
The majority here seek out and appreciate the truth.
I was agreeing with your analysis, not questioning it, and attempting to enhance it for the benefit of your response to newcarguy. It was to help him realize that his view was limited, when the corporate control was much more pervasive.
I speak out a lot, amigo. Many seem to wish I would stop lol.