“There’s a good deal of evidence that suggests the most traumatic experience of war isn’t being the target of violence, but rather the agent. A 1994 study of post-traumatic stress in veterans of World War II, Korea and Vietnam found that “responsibility for killing another human being is the single most pervasive, traumatic experience of war.”; and it is the ‘why’ behind the huge difference in applications for disability payments from those who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and those who served in World War II, Korea and Vietnam.

Words have been cheapened in the usage of the english language as slang has been elevated as a means of communication; hero is just one of the words so treated.

I watched Chris Hayes’ Sunday morning segment on “heroism” while I was having my morning coffee and I thought he was sensitive when he suggested that he was uncomfortable using the term “hero” in referring to all troops. As a vet I have been discomfited by the MSM’s widespread and indiscriminate use of the term because it tends to denigrate and diminish real heroes and their heroic actions. This morning CNN’s Solenoid O’Brien felt compelled to weigh in on the subject and she and her giggling cohorts let Chris know that he was wrong in asserting his uncomfortableness with the term. And these are the same people who would never refer to Bradley Manning’s actions as heroic – they dictate the definition, dontcha know. I don’t know if you read Peterr’s post this weekend but he described an action by Warrant Officer Thompson in Mar., 1968, during the My Lai massacre, when he used his helicopter to prevent the killing of a group of civilians by his comrades in arms. WO Thompson is a hero but there will never be a mention of his actions by the MSM. The MSM is clueless when it comes to recognizing authentic heroes, so they refer to all troops as heroes.

This reminds me of the John F Kennedy quote:

War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.

Sad day in america and a sad commentary on the state of the “liberal media”

The word “hero” has been debased by its massive overuse. It’s enough to cause snickers when it’s used to cover nearly everyone.

A phrase that’s overused is “Thank you for your service.”

I was gratified when I heard a servicemember recently declare “First, I am a citizen, then I am a soldier.” She gets the idea. Citizens protect their own security; subjects depend on their security from others. Deutsch, Jones and Snyderman represent those in our society who do not understand the difference between a citizen and a subject. This is a dangerous ignorance.

Doesn’t MIC Contractor General Electric aka G.E. (brings good things to life, also brings death) OWN NBC and MSNBC?

If so, it is not ad revenue alone that would inspire the Brass to encourage as much blind patriotism, War Mongering and Military Hero Worship as possible.

(They’re heroes that nobody wants to pay or provide with medical care they require or living-wage employment they need afterwards, but that’s another story.)

It has truly reached a nauseating level. Bootlicking sychophants. No matter their misdeeds, every head-cracking, donut-eating police officer, fireman, soldier – anybody in a goldang uniform is a fucking HERO.

I’m surprised that Matt Lauer played devil’s advocate in this case. He’s usually a very dependable corporate stooge.

Chris Hayes has already “walked back” his statement and issued an abject apology for telling the truth. He’s been effectively co-opted and sacrificed his credibility.

my father was a doctor in WW2,they took away his red cross card and gave him a gun…the man was`scarred for life..nervous breakdown on coming home

War is murder and carnage,how could anyone recover from it?

What is most depressing for Hayes is that he apologized from the platform of his now shrinking cell of downward career mobility. The imperial war machine is spitefully unforgiving.

NBC= NOTHING BUT CRAPOLA…24/7

No! Comcast now owns 51% of NBC, and related media properties. GE owns 49%. So Brian Roberts basically calls the shots, if he wants to.

Nancy Snyderman? Isn’t she the medical reporter? WTF is she commenting on this for?

because all the employees are embedded with tape recorded chips to repeat the same drivel…a chorus kinda

“The only way to abolish war is to make peace heroic.”
James Hinton, Philosophy and Religion: Selections the Manuscripts of the Late
James Hinton, ed. Caroline Haddon, (2nd ed., London: 1884), p. 267.

cable snooze,practically all programming=unwatchable drivel….how the hell is Beyonces baby fat doin…………head explodes

If not for DDay here I wouldn’t know anything about teevee news news. I only know Christopher Hayes as the Editor-At-Large for The Nation magazine.

hey AD!!!!!

cable teebee is a total waste of $$$

I have watched Chris Hayes show from the beginning. He and Rachael Maddow
are two of the best when it comes to commentary. I saw how this made him feel uncomfortable to say what he said. People on the Today show have no clue except for Matt Lauer who genuinely is a good guy and an understanding one. I’m surprised no one on MSNBC in the Morning Joe show stuck up for Chris. But, then again we’re talking about Mika and the super republican Joe Scarbutt.. I know Rachael will have a commentary and it will be a good one. If Chris feels like he was bretrayed by his bosses at
MSNBC, he could always jump over to Current TV or even Free Speech TV. Would be a wonderful thing if he could have a show before Thomm Hartmann. That would be impressive to say the least!!

My brother was a genuine war hero, Vietnam, and a surly tempered, foul mouthed drunk. At the same time.

they shit canned the Dawg bounty hunter can the Karcrashians,and Snooki be next…one can only hope

“Fact is merely what enough people believe, and truth lies only in how fervently they believe it.”

From Idiot America by Charles Pierce

I doubt George would call a soldier blown up by an IED a hero.

“Don’t be a fool and die for your country. Let the other sonofabitch die for his. “
George S. Patton,

ho hum,id rather feed my hamster ,than watch any of it…sorry

one does not preclude the other,i hope he is peaceful now

Chris Hayes has one of the two best shows on cable. Period. I have believed for weeks that Up would start to give the Network bullshit a run for their money and they would find something to slap him down over. I mean seriously. A program that engages in rational in-depth discussion of the major issues with guests who are not idealogues or demigogues.

The nerve.

The tell will come when he is fired. I hope he isn’t but I know of this interesting little start-up news network that might want to talk to him.

Just my point.

Hey SweetieYes!

Time-Warner Cable is included in my rent, but I don’t watch anything. :-)/:-(

My mother’s last words on this Earth (she was in her 91st year) were “Turn that off, I can’t stand to listen to her”, referring to an anchor on CNN. I handed her the remote and pointed to the OFF button, she clicked it, the set went off, she closed her eyes, sighed a few times, and left, I hope happy.

Yeah that Rachel is really nonpartisan and principled. She, the Rhodes scholar, couldn’t even bring herself to utter the word “masturbate” on TV. As to CurrentTV, it’s a slightly less partisan version of MSNBC. The only cable news station worth a shit was when Democracy Now was allowed to broadcast on TV. Thom Hartmann is an Obamapologist.

Love the soldier.
Hate the mission.

blah, blah, blah heroic warriors, blah, blah, bah”

The would not have to be “heroic warriors” if it was not for the crazy stupid wars.

And how will they refer to the drone pilots? As “heroic warriors too”?

I disagree vehemently. I like and respect both Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow.

Did it occur to you that she didn’t use the word because some people might be offended, and because there are pretty strict rules about obscenity and she didn’t want to cross that line?

I heartily agree, dicksmc3!

I agree with your comment! I quit watching the Sunday morning talk shows about 12 years ago – they’re as empty as cotton candy. Up, with Chris moderating, has altered my viewing habits because he really attempts to have robust discussions, in depth, about issues we discuss frequently here at FDL. I hope MSNBC realizes what a gem he is and doesn’t send him packing and still retain Morning Joe, a real train wreck of a program. But what can you expect from a network that spends a goodly amount of on air time in …prisons!?

I thought the so-called obscenity regulations applied only to over-the-air (non cable) broadcasting.

Ryann O’Toole on Golf Channel was talking about her friendships as a rookie on the LPGA tour, how they all like “to shoot the shit”, it wasn’t bleeped. And Azahara Munoz from Spain, described her nerve-wracking winning putt in last year’s Solheim Cup match with “Oh! I almost pee my pants!”

Paid assassins are not heros.

This concept and country are certifiable nuts.

So what can we conclude? NBC wants to challenge Fox for the bottom rung on the ladder into the cesspool called cable?

Frankly, I spent a whole hour in tears on Memorial Day, watching Amy Goodman cast the best demonstration of heroism since Vietnam protests.

Fuck cable.

you are correct of course…for some people,conventional wisdom reigns,even if the lies destroy the country

of course,but nobody should analyze that

battle wounds,are what plastic surgery was created for…can you even imagine,how traumatic,and monsterous a war zone is like?

You are so over the top weird, Sadly.
But, have at it.

> A phrase that’s overused is “Thank you for your service.”

No kidding. The last thing I would say to these hired killers is “Thank you for your service.”

The tell will come when he is fired.

x2. He is way too intelligent, sophisticated, and nuanced for the bucket of shit named MSNBC.

oh really,what the hell do you know about it…educate yourself

Left ya a dispute-ending reply at the Lakeside Diner, but in the alley since it’s after hours. The rasping sound isn’t me, it’s the pumice stone scrubbing down the griddle.

Not OT but I thought I’d add a tidbit from history: During the Dem convention coverage in 2004 (with Tweety and KO sharing the anchors, more or less when KO made his bones at MSNBC), The Nation magazine ran commercials on MSNBC, I think it was the first time The Nation advertised on TV, and of course Hayes made his bones at The Nation. I should have posted a ***BOREDOM ALERT*** first, huh?

“In the future everyone will lie on TV every 15 minutes” — Andy Varhola (I knew one of his relatives, Danny)

Interesting. Thanks.

from the American Academy of Plastic Surgeons

War Drives Plastic Surgery Developments

For better or worse, the driving force behind most plastic surgery developments during the late 1800s and early 1900s was war, with the awful injuries it often inflicts on its participants. In fact, it was the “War to End All Wars,” World War I, that catapulted plastic surgery into a new and higher realm.

Never before had physicians been required to treat so many and such extensive facial and head injuries. Shattered jaws, blown-off noses and lips and gaping skull wounds caused by modern weapons required innovative restorative procedures. Some of the best medical talent in Britain, France, Germany, Russia and Austria-Hungary devoted themselves to restoring the faces and lives of their countrymen during and after World War I. In the United States, plastic surgeons like Varaztad Kazanjian of Boston and Vilray Blair of St. Louis nobly served both their country, and humanity, in those years

it rots the brain,i agree with your mom
i have read studies on the somatic affect etc

gotta run,the vapidity index here tonight has tilted to vacuous

Next to FireDogLake, the Up program is the best on the Internet for me, I gave up cable years ago – waste of money.

Up, with Chris Hayes, from about the third week in, was the “BEST” program on Saturday and especially SUNDAY. MTP, FTN, FOX, CNN, etc. were so full of extremely poor guests that it is refreshing to do something important for a few hours before catching the Up show on the Internet.

He and his 4 guests are not always progressive minded but they are substantive. Both sides bring up good topics. Yes, some of the bashing is typical, but there are shared dialogue that have a higher level of intelligence then 10th grade education, which I believe was recently stated as the level of Senators and at least one (1) more level lower for the Congresspersons.

It was correct, for me, to state by Chris his statement. But, he did not apologize – he chose his words carefully and restated his position and how it could be taken out of context.

Not all are “heros” who have fallen. I wish we would chose that word for those that truly lead, especially in Oval office. And there are “heros” who fight against the killing. What about those who died at Kent State, some of those students were just walking across campus and were gun down by our own military.

If there are “heros” then there are cowards. Why not single them out – how about it Dick, Rummy, etc.

Since digital TV and LCD, LED, and Plasma screens, those effects may no longer affect the viewer. Many were caused by the CRT and the electron beams from the phosphors, particularly since you had to bring your focus about an inch from the screen to resolve the images clearly instead of focussing directly on the millions of phosphors. The effect then of keeping your focus fixed is that your brain ‘assumes’ you’re asleep or in a trance, which is what the brain waves showed. Also, the vidicon scan and CRT resolution scan often had a hypnotic effect. In any event, the ‘invisible’ image changed 30 times a second at 60Hz AC, and the effect of the electronic bombardment was quite aggressive. When I went to France and watched TV there (higher resolution and scanning at 50Hz, which is ‘slower’, I actually saw the scan lines scrolling up the screen because my brain was trained at the 60Hz rate, and it took a few hours to adjust.

Mainly, though, if you’re not watching TV it means you’re doing something else.

Thanks bill. I hope they do too. Up is the kind of show I’ve been hoping for but because it’s substantive and moves outside the confines of acceptable MSM topics they will find a way to destroy it. After all, he might actually out perform MTP someday and that just can’t happen.

Must control the narrative, don’t ya know.

Pretty good thread. I wish Chris could see this. Anybody know if he read FDL?

You can’t even get the quote right:
“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.”

That’s the correct quote. Glad you like Patton. Here are some more choice quotes of his:

“Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle.”

“A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.”

“Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory.”

“Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.”

What a mean thing to say.
I do educate myself, while you blah, blah, blah.
You do.

Ha! You really are too much, sadly.

One can only note the incredible irony here; It is those who never served (all the guests on the Today Show) who were the most vehement in heaping scorn toward anyone who suggest that not all of those who serve are “Heroes”.

I mean…Star Jones? Deutsh? Puuuhleeeeeze!

Guilt much bitchez?

Describing everyone who deployed in active duty as hero is is like those “trophies for everyone” they give in kindergarten.

Gee, I think we should have more “heroes” as in…resuming the draft. When the MOTU’s children become cannon fodder ,too, then we will have peace.

why does NBC force Hayes to apologize, yet give racist birther scumbag Trump a pass?..

from a comment on http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-05-28/memorial-day-2012

“Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle’s picture

crzyhun

I was gonna say can you be more full of shit.

But I’ll just assume you are ignorant of American History.

In light of that I’ll merely point out a single part of your rant which is wrong.

“It is the VETERAN, not the community organizer, who has given us freedom to assemble.”

You might Google up all the times US troops have been used on American soil to crush say mine strikes.

Like this one ”

14 July 1877
A general strike halted the movement of U.S. railroads. In the following days, strike riots spread across the United States. The next week, federal troops were called out to force an end to the nationwide strike. At the “Battle of the Viaduct” in Chicago, federal troops (recently returned from an Indian massacre) killed 30 workers and wounded over 100.”

Or this one

“1894
Federal troops killed 34 American Railway Union members in the Chicago area attempting to break a strike, led by Eugene Debs, against the Pullman Company. Debs and several others were imprisoned for violating injunctions, causing disintegration of the union.”

And this

“1920 and 1921
Army troops were used to intervene against striking mineworkers in West Virginia. Details of these events can be found in the extensive and excellent article at http://www.wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh50-1.html.”

And this will rock your boat

28 December 1944
President Franklin D. Roosevelt ordered the Army to seize the executive offices of Montgomery Ward and Company after the corporation failed to comply with a National War Labor Board directive regarding union shops.

1 April 1946
A strike by 400,000 mine workers in the U.S. began. U.S. troops seized railroads and coal mines the following month.

4 October 1946
The U.S. Navy seized oil refineries in order to break a 20-state post-war strike.

27 August 1950
President Truman ordered the U.S. Army to seize all the nation’s railroads to prevent a general strike. The railroads were not returned to their owners until two years later.

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/july28th.html

1932 U.S.A. “Bonus Army” World War I veterans
28th July 1932 : Federal troops under the order of President Hoover forcibly dispersed the “Bonus Army” of ( 17,000 World War I veterans ) who had gathered in Washington, D.C. on June 17th to demand money they weren’t scheduled to receive until 1945. The troops under the command of General Douglas MacArthur and Major George S. Patton are ordered to charge into the veterans and were sent to destroy the temporary shacks in the Bonus Army’s camps in Hooverville on the Anacostia Flats forcing the marchers out. By the end of the day hundreds of veterans were injured, and several were killed.
The World War I Vets like every body else in the country were suffering with no jobs and money during these early years of the great depression and wanted the Service Certificates they had earned while fighting in World War I paid out early.

( MacArthur and Patton were real dirtbags)”

Sociopaths. Who are not nuts, in the common use of the word nuts.

I cannot believe the naivete here. I watch Rachel & Lawrence & Chris Matthews (Chris M is becomming awesome but I remember him fawning over Bush several years after B invaded Iraq). Maybe Chris H should have experimented with insulting Muhammad; he would have gotten a real nice response for that. What a fool. Here are a couple of more ideas for him to try out: argue for domestic military invasion and defeat (really helped out Japan & Germany), or invading the Vatican, one of the oldest and most corrupt institutions in the world… We call them heros to compensate in a vary small way for the ‘things’ we ask them to do in our name. It is the least we can do. This kind of foolish comment inflames everyone and makes it impossible to focus on the important issues. I’m pissed off again at the stupidity of we liberals. ‘never worked a day in her life’ ‘cling to their Bibles and guns’,etc.

As an ex-GI,I can tell you that the vast majority of soldiers would much rather be a live coward than a dead hero.

—-the vast majority of soldiers would much rather be a live coward than a dead hero.

There is a 99% profile if I ever seen one! an ol’ ex-Cav, to an ex-GI

Demi,i dont mean to be mean,but you know the old saying,about opening your mouth,and or type face,and removing all doubt about ,ones lack of knowledge…just keep your comments about me,to yourself,since i consider your uninformed musings vapid,and of no use at all,go meander at PUAC

because,that is the meme…dump on the reasonable POV as opposed to the crackpot rich guy..(all daddys money btw)

Many of the comments I read on CNN, I think it was, were from military and they were supportive of Hayes.

oh god yes,they murdered workers,just trying to improve their plight

War is a Racket

pg 1 always has been

for Demi

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
Abraham Lincoln

honest Abe

by the way,you thought plastic surgery was just about narcissistic women and men trying to stay young?

The last thing I would say to these hired killers is “Thank you for your service.”

A lot of these men and women just signed up because they needed a job or the benefits. They don’t plan to be hired killers. But then they get ordered to do shit that is politically expedient. It is as unfair to blame them all, as it is to call them all heroes reflexively. Moreover, if they were handed a suck-y task, and yet managed to do their time with grace and diligence. Those that did so are worthy of credit.

The term “masturbate” is not obscene. Perhaps you are one of those people who would take offense, but then I find that offensive. She still pimps for Obama and Clinton, that’s offensive.