Nancy Pelosi’s Bush tax cut shift continues to sow confusion among the top ranks of the Democratic Party, who are struggling to find a consensus view. White House Press Secretary Jay Carney was asked about the tax cut issue yesterday:
Q: The President for a long time has advocated ending the tax breaks for those making $250,000 or more. Nancy Pelosi has come by with another suggestion, setting that number at $1 million. Her office says it’s a way to move the process along. I was wondering what the White House thinks of her proposal.
MR. CARNEY: Well, the President’s position has been clear for years. As you rightly state, we need to end the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans and make them permanent for every family bringing in less than $250,000 a year. We know that Democratic leaders in Congress are committed to making sure that taxes do not go up on millions of families at the end of the year, as is the President. And the question now is whether Republicans will vote to raise taxes on the middle class and hold the middle class hostage on the insistence that the wealthiest Americans continue to get tax breaks that contributed mightily already to our deficits, which in this economic environment they do not need.
Carney basically ignored the distinction between the White House and Pelosi. Asked again, he said that “we’re continuing to work with leaders in Congress on how best to move forward.” He said this at least twice more. But clearly it was an uncomfortable situation, where Carney wanted to focus on Republican intransigence, not Democratic lack of consensus.
Pelosi was also asked about her new position at her weekly press conference. First she was asked if a short-term extension would be amenable if there was no resolution and she rejected it out of hand. Then a questioner brought up the damning CBPP report on what raising the dividing line to $1 million would actually mean.
Q: Madam Leader, you called for balance between more revenue and spending cuts to try to reduce the deficit, yet the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities says that your tax plan to tax people who earn a million or more in income would actually raise a little more than half of the revenue over the next 10-years than would the President’s plan of letting the Bush‑era tax cuts expire.
Leader Pelosi. I don’t agree with their calculation because I certainly – if the inference to be drawn from their calculation is therefore we have to make other cuts, I don’t agree with that. The tax rate on income is one way to approach upper‑income revenue. There are other ways as well, and our Ways and Means Committee and our Joint Tax Committee have presented us with many of those.
So this is, and I hope they have confidence in my dedication to the proper investments that we need to have a balanced approach and that means revenues, and it means cuts, which we have already by and large made. And if there are others that we can make, which do not upset our priorities, then we should go down that path. But this is what is called the lively debate, and it’s pretty exciting, and people put their views of one thing or another on the table. But the fact is that we all agree that the higher income has to pay its fair share. Everybody has to pay his or her fair share and we are not going to be able to have balance unless we have revenue and we are not going to be able to reduce the deficit unless we have revenue. And that revenue will be used to reduce the deficit.
Basically a punt. She does not address the calculations outside of saying she “didn’t agree” with them. What doesn’t she agree with? That keeping tax rates low between $250,000 and $1 million of income would necessarily reduce tax revenue? Seemingly she only disagrees that you would have to make up that revenue with spending cuts somewhere. I hope that means she’s cutting the deficit reduction target by that same amount, but I’m not hopeful. Pelosi alludes to “other ways” to capture upper-income revenue, which may be referring to the Buffett rule, but that’s not what she demanded a vote on.
The questioner restated the question, and Pelosi broke it down like this:
… part of my view is, I have been pushing for middle income tax cuts for a long time. A. B, the $250,000 never made it. Three, if we can get the million dollar and above people to pay their fair share, we get a lot of money. Eighty-percent of the benefits – excuse me, 81 percent of the benefits of the Bush [high income] tax cuts go to the people making over a million dollars a year, 81 percent of the benefits. If that’s easier for the public to understand, then we should go that route. But when we were in that debate, we can go anyplace with it – Clinton tax cuts, $250,000, whatever it is, but let’s get it started. It is a path to getting something done. It is a path to reducing the deficit while we get the wealthiest people to pay their fair share and it is a path to take us to tax simplification, tax reform. Let’s put it all on the table at that point and see what we do with the rest of it.
This is fun with statistics. Yes, 81% of the benefits of the Bush tax cuts go to people making over a million dollars a year. And they would still get a lot of those benefits under Pelosi’s plan. That’s how marginal taxes work. Millionaires would get the full benefit of the Bush tax rates staying consistent up to $1 million in revenue. This, by the way, is why they shouldn’t stay in existence.
Pelosi then shifts back to saying “we can go anyplace” once we’re in the debate. But this is the whole problem. Democrats have been talking for four years about expiring the Bush tax cuts at $250,000 of income. Once you muddle that message, once you shift, it’s actually very hard to shift back.
As I’ve been saying, the fortunate part of this is that Republicans are unlikely to allow any division on the Bush tax cuts. John Boehner made the ludicrous and debunked comment that half of all millionaires on the individual tax income rolls are actually small businesses filing as individuals. His spokesman already admitted that was untrue. Republicans want to extend all the tax rates and won’t compromise. If Pelosi’s position that a short-term extension is untenable holds, then you get a full expiration, and then you can reposition “Obama tax cuts” and force Republicans to try and object to tax cuts. That’s the program that worked on the payroll tax cuts anyway. Much of this depends on who is in Congress and who is President come January 2013, of course, and given today’s jobs report that’s up in the air.




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Has Pelosi been taking word salad lessons from Sarah Palin?
BTW, I have to agree with another commenter (perris?) that these should not be called
the Bush tax cuts, or even the Bush-era tax cuts. Those expired on Dec. 31, 2010.
The current stinking mess is fully owned by the party that controlled Congress and the White House
in the Fall of 2010.
Seems that once again Obama and Pelosi, soon followed by Hoyer and Reid, capitulate prior to any legislation or negotiations with the GOP. Far from suffering from a lack of consensus or muddling the message, this is SOP for the White House and DINO leaders(?) and an effort for political cover for Congress.
Classic Democratic response to this whole issue of the fiscal cliff. Let’s meet the Republicans 3/4 of the way, while they basically give up nothing. If the BTC’s don’t expire this year then when. check out my column on Progressives and why they don’t need to sit it out in November. http://www.ericnewsdaily.blogspot.com
Have you ever heard of “Good Cop, Bad Cop?”
(or, in the case of Wall Street, “Cop?”
Smart thing for Dems to do: let the tax cuts expire for everybody. Then write a bill to restore them just for middle and lower income brackets and let the GOP vote against it.
But the Dems won’t do it because they’re whores for the rich just like the GOPers. All this kabuki about cutoff points is just a smoke screen to hide that fact.
Mr Dayen, the Bush tax cuts expired in 2010.
I predict that as a compromise Democrats are going to extend the “Bush”, i.e. Obama, tax cuts to everyone permanently. Plus they will give rich people even bigger tax cuts–since that’s what they want to do anyway.
I have a new slogan for the Democratic Party that they could roll out before the November election. Voters will appreciate that added honesty I’m sure. Here it is: Democrats–lovers of rich plutocrats, haters of the common man.
There are two reasons for this miserable capitulation. The first is money. Too many people with money in the pot want to keep their taxes low. They pay for the politicians, and they believe they have a right to get what they paid for. The other reason is that Obama and Pelosi think that without tax cut extensions, the economy will sink into a Depression (excuse me? If this is the best of all possible worlds, what are the others like?). That is the club the Republicans are holding over them. It is lose-lose all the way round for the ordinary American.
Also think they get extended permanently, followed by a decrease in the corporate tax rate.
As far as the rich getting a bigger tax cut, that is usually the outcome when you contribute at such a higher rate. Any decrease in tax rates will give more benefit to those paying the most in taxes. Just the way it is.
can’t stand I have to keep correcting david on his own threads but since he doesn’t his own posts this is what has to happen
there are no such thing as bush tax cuts in discussion, those expired, these are obama’s
since the rich pay less in taxes when you consider all taxes, regressive included, that reasoning fails
Boy, you can say that again. She sounds exactly like Palin here lately. I suspect that is what happens when one attempts to defend an indefensible position or statement.
I say “off with her head”. Well, not literally.
Shit, they’re (democratic leaders+Obama) comprimising before they even enter room.
We’re so screwed!
Carney basically ignored the distinction between the White House and Pelosi.
Because in reality there isn’t one. Pelosi is doing what she’s been asked to do. She’s setting the table for beginning negotiations with a baseline of $1,000,000.00. And since this is the baseline starting point, the final number will be higher.
Pelosi then shifts back to saying “we can go anyplace” once we’re in the debate. But this is the whole problem.
It’s not just a problem, it’s an outright lie. Anyone that has ever negotiated for anything knows this. Once you’ve put the offer on the table, the other side knows that offer is available. If Pelosi and the Dems actually wanted to negotiate for lower numbers, this million dollar number wouldn’t be out there, and Jay Carney would have slapped it down as well. And if they were serious, they’d also change the framing they use to discuss these tax cuts, saying something like “We want to cut taxes on the first 250k per year for everyone” rather than using language that makes it sound as if only the middle class would receive the cut.
These pols aren’t stupid. They know what game they’re playing, and the game they’re playing is “Wonder if our supporters will believe this whopper? Yeah, I’m sure they will.” They are playing us for fools. And why wouldn’t they? We fall for it over and over and over again. Me? I’m done falling.
The rich pay less on an absolute basis? Where is that data hiding?
“Well, the President’s position has been clear for years.”
Indeed it has. And that position is that the rich will continue to get tax breaks. Pelosi’s position is identical, semantics and fun-with-numbers aside. Who the fuck do these people work for? Did the vast majority of those of us paying attention to this issue individually or collectively give Pelosi or Obama the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars they needed to get their jobs? If not, then we ain’t getting shit.
“Warren Buffett’s secretary since 1993, Debbie Bosanek, sat next to her boss just hours after being invited by the president to the State of the Union address, where the president made her the face of tax inequality in America. Bosanek pays a tax rate of 35.8 percent of income, while Buffett pays a rate at 17.4 percent.”
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/01/warren-buffett-and-his-secretary-talk-taxes/
That was a rhetorical question right?
I so hate to repeat myself, but WE ARE SO SCREWED.
Those aren’t absolute numbers are they?
And if his secretary’s marginal tax rate is 35.8% then she isn’t one of the “little” people…..
Jive talking she’s putting me on !
The iron law of political speech in the US: Whatever is said publicly, the opposite is true. So, “we need to end the tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans” means that these tax breaks will be extended or increased.
An absolute basis? No, or at least not usually. But relative to the ability to pay? Yes, absolutely. You’re familiar with the parable of the widow’s mite?
Ha. Sadly rhetorical, as I couldn’t come up with anything more insightful to further illuminate this simple, overt bribery racket. And our votes and money don’t count. That bribe money is used to buy TV ads that tell us who to vote for. For most of us, taxes are automatically taken out of our paychecks so the possibility of withholding them in protest is not available. All of this leaves us fewer options to affect a balance of power that is essential to keep from getting fucked by those who have accrued the lion’s share of it.
Pelosi is a sock puppet for Obama and the “discrepancy” between them, nothing but hot air. The OBAMA TAX CUTS will be extended at a level which will most satisfy the rich. The working man is not even being considered in the equation, because no amount of tax cuts for them will give them a fighting chance against the rentiers who control our democracy and its now privatized coffer.
Obama is a FRAUD.
Who are you gonna vote for?
To take an example, suppose your taxable income (after deductions and exemptions) is exactly $100,000 in 2012 and your status is Married filing jointly; then your tax would be calculated like this:
($17,400 minus 0) x .10 = $1,740.00
($70,700 minus 17,400) x .15 = $7,995.00
($100,000 minus 70,700) x .25 = $7,325.00
Total: $ 17,060.00
Or 17% on $100,000. The next brackets are 28% at $142,700, 33% at $217,450 and 35% at $388,350.
Hard to see how anyone could get above 35%.
EVERYTHING Pelosi is doing… has been orchestrated by Obama.
Puppets controlling other puppets.
Puppets: “A movable model of a person or animal used in entertainment and typically moved either by strings from above or by a hand inside it.”
Absolutely. Pelosi’s “position” is simply a trial balloon that’s being floated by the Obama administration. Pelosi’s just the message carrier.
All I’ve been hearing for the last 10 years is Bush Tax Cuts For The Rich!, even though they’ve been extended by Obama.
Well, if they’re tax cuts for the rich, they should all expire. The $1,000,000 or $250,000 limit is pointless. DD’s post yesterday pointed out that 86% of the Bush Tax Cuts For The Rich went to people making less than $1M, and 74% went to The Rich making less than $250K.
What were all forgetting is that Pelosi’s husband is not a poor man either…and what else we will not accept is that this crap is going to go on and on until we throw everyone out and start this whole political thing all over again.
I would only disagree with your statement… “And our votes and money don’t count.”
Nothing could be further from the truth. “Our votes dont count” is one of the biggest brainwashing scams ever. It is meant to disempower voters and make them feel helpless… which is exactly what the 1% want you to feel.
Your vote… DOES COUNT… way more than you think. When you go into the voting booth… the person who decides who you vote for is YOU… not a politician crook… or a corporation crook… YOU decide.
But if you vote for corrupt Obama or corrupt Romney… then YOU have done EXACTLY what the 1% want you to do… YOU have given away your vote to a bunch of corrupt scoundrels… YOU have elected and rewarded your oppressors for what they are doing to you. YOU did it… and you will have no one but yourself to blame.
You are obviously an intelligent person… dont trash and abuse your most precious gift… given to you by our forefathers… your vote. Stand up for what you believe in. Stop voting for these crooks.
Just take a look at Wisconsin. It appears that Walker will win again because the people like money and have always insisted that candidates put on a show when they run for election. Very seldom does anyone win with grassroots. What is happening is the fault of the voters not the politicians. The politicians are giving us what we want. There is something wrong with the American People when they insist on voting against their interests. No candidate could ever get by telling a 1% er that he/she intends to raise their taxes, illiminate their loopholes etc and get by with it. However the middle class seems to enjoy the threat of slashed benefits, broken Unions and meager wages.
Slam Dunk… 100%
I would love to think that my vote in the voting booth counts, but the truth is that only the votes counted by the counters count. Until we get machines that are not hackable easily and are guarded closely, we will get the results that are wanted by the 1%. I will not vote for either 0 or rmoney, but, in the counting it won’t matter what I do.
With this being part of the Democrat’s plan to Starve the Beast, they’ll kneecap the social safety net while they’re at it – reducing revenue, so they create their own alleged crisis.
The Warren Buffett secretary argument has gone beyond a cliche at this point. Just so tired I cringe every time I hear it.
You’re a smart person… fight the brainwashing… you can do it.
You have a large number of members here… who are on your side… we understand your anger… we feel it too.
But dont give in to the brainwashing… keep thinking for yourself.
We simply CANNOT continue to vote for and reward these crooks. The change that is comming wont happen overnight… dont give up… thats what the 1% want everyone to do.
Looks like you have made some smart decisions about voting… BRAVO!
nobody is hiding data, it’s there but of course you won’t hear about it from corporate media
you can read a simply explanation here
http://www.abqjournal.com/main/2012/04/13/opinion/whos-really-paying-the-highest-taxes.html
you have to answer the question to see the entire text but in a nut shell;
if I make 20k a year my entire salary is retaxed. sales tax, useage taxes and fees, I am paying additional taxes on everything
if I make 6 figures I get retaxed on a far lower percentage of my wage, leaving the rest untaxed.
the original intention of “progressive tax code” was not to “punish the rich” or “have them pay more because they can afford more” it was because they pay less and the progressive code is there to offset the dif.
if it were possible to equalize regressive taxes so the lower wage earner does not pay more in those, that would be a far more equitable tax code for the labor class, however the wealth class doesn’t really want “true” flat tax, they always want to ignore real taxes and simply concentrate on the taxes they can demonstrate some mathematical disadvantage
quick example
my friend took the only job he could get in manhatten, there is a toll tax of 12 bucks a day, let’s call it ten to make the math easy
he makes 500 a week, that’s 50 bucks or ten percent of his salary retaxed
if I make 5 k a week I am paying this tax at 1 percent my salary
the people reaping the greatest reward are actually paying the lowest rate of tax in this case and many others
obviously the same holds true for gas tax, sales tax, etc
Musta had trouble with the Turbo-Tax software.
I take my taxes to the local Notary/Tax Expert/Car Stereo guy. He’s really good
Substance… truth… thanks.
I agree.
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Anybody ever seen a picture of her?
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..Just curious
ivn, can I call you ivn?
I appreciate your optimism and level-headed comments. Is there a particular anti-depressant you rcommend? :-)
You can call bridge toll a tax if you want to. I guess when you and your friend go out to lunch he has to pay a 10% hamburger re-tax, and you only have to pay a 1% hamburger re-tax for the same meal.
In your world, life really isn’t fair.
newcarguy…
It’s always an honor to be addressed by you… you always, without hesitation… speak from the heart and mind… much respect.
My apology for the length of my screen name… ivn… perfect.
I kindly appreciate the sentiment. However, thinking ones’ vote doesn’t count is not necessarily synonymous with disempowerment and apathy. Voting is only one small part of democracy or affecting a balance of political power. Indeed, imagining that, in the current political environment, one’s vote counts may be the more fictional perspective, especially if we consider what passes for “choice.” I suggest that right now there are better things that citizens could do like stop joining the military, stop watching TV, stop over consuming, stop obeying, stop deferring to leaders, stop being afraid and stop giving rich folks retirement money to gamble with, for starters.
Considering all the things I value, voting is way, way down on my list of “precious gifts.” :) I get to vote for my political leaders?! That’s great unless I don’t care to be led, in which case voting is worse than nothing because to do it would be to act against my interests. And political agency, like freedom, is not a commodity that can be bequeathed by another, most especially someone who is dead.
“There is something wrong with the American People when they insist on voting against their interests.”
My stab: 70 years of perpetual war will get you some serious Fear that in turn makes deferring to Authority appealing, which creates an imbalance of power. When one’s agency and interests are surrendered in such a way, voting against one’s best interests is practically inevitable. Fear, Authority and the opiate of Consumption seem to be the main sociopolitical ingredients in the US.
Hey Otto@44 ,spoken like a true anarchist.I will vote to advance our message in some way ,but I don;t even want a small-scale vanguard leading me around ,let alone some fascist assholes shilling for this experiment of inverted totalitarianism .