Scott Walker survived his recall last night in Wisconsin, and when all is said and done, he will have defeated Tom Barrett by almost precisely the same spread as in 2010 – by around 53-47. The sour mood of the night was tempered somewhat by an apparent victory for Democrat John Lehman in one of the four state Senate races, which gives control of the state Senate back to Democrats, the first time a recall election has led to a change in the composition of a legislative chamber in US history. This does at least end the trifecta in Wisconsin, and divided government will possibly keep at bay any further impositions from the Walker agenda.
But for a moment, let’s focus on the Walker recall. He succeeded in keeping a stable 53% of the electorate in his corner, despite an extreme overreach from the themes of his 2010 campaign, despite the pushback from the left in the state. The money helped – Walker and his allies massively outspent Barrett, and discounting outside money it was about 10:1 Walker – but you also must weigh in a number of factors.
• The real fundraising imbalance: I see a lot of people saying “it’s Citizens United” as shorthand for the explosion of spending in this, the most expensive election in Wisconsin history. That’s not true. The real culprit was an obscure state campaign finance law that allowed Walker, the incumbent, to raise unlimited money while recall petitions were processed all the way through to the recall primary. Barrett’s donations were term-limited. THAT was the source of the massive imbalance in campaign spending, not any judicial ruling at the federal level. It’s frightful that never became an issue in the campaign, or that nobody understands that.
• Wisconsin’s view on recalls: 6 out of 10 in exit polls said they only viewed serious misconduct in office as a threshold for recall. Given the numbers, obviously some voters felt Walker rose to that standard. But not nearly enough. This was the end of a long road of voting for Wisconsinites, many months removed from the uprising in Madison, and a majority of voters just didn’t believe in the project, in the end. That owes a lot to…
• The grasp for a message: The impetus for the recalls, the reason voters went to the polls yesterday, faded into the background. “Collective bargaining” wasn’t at the top of voters’ minds. Tom Barrett ran a campaign where he first appealed to the need for unity, when voters showed with their above-2010 turnout in early June for a recall that they weren’t interested in unity. Then he ran with jobs numbers, which devolved into a he said/the guy with a lot of money said, and the guy with a lot of money won that argument. Then there was a late push to capitalize on the John Doe investigation, which still may ensnare Walker. Ultimately, it was too late to get traction there. Never was there an effort to actually recapture the spirit of the recalls, by stating clearly and forcefully why assaulting worker’s rights was out of bounds.
Maybe it was impossible to do that in a traditional electoral campaign. When protesters put down their protest signs and picked up a clipboard, they necessarily squeezed themselves into a narrow form of political action, and an uncertain one at best. They had to contend with Barrett, who wasn’t the first choice of labor, given his forcing through concessions on Milwaukee public employee unions, as their symbol, rather than a decentralized movement of citizen activists. They disempowered themselves by running through a traditional party apparatus. I am not completely convinced that striking would have been worthwhile, or in some respects, even permissable. But it’s worth asking.
But the most important point to be made, the one that makes me call this a continuing blow to labor, is the simple point that:
• Walker already won the war. The policy of defunding the left, defunding the checks on conservative power, was the entire point of Scott Walker’s agenda. And it was successful when he signed Act 10, the anti-worker law, last year. The entire point was to decimate public unions, one of the last bastions of labor strength. And that’s exactly what happened; public unions in Wisconsin lost thousands of members over the past year. As a result, labor couldn’t keep up with outside spending to compensate for the massive loophole-induced funding lead Walker had. Labor didn’t have the numbers or the public sentiment to make the argument for the importance of unions and collective bargaining. Walker divided and conquered, and it worked. Middle class workers look on public employees with increasing envy, coveting their pensions and benefits. The middle class was pit against one another, and without a base to collectivize their power, the forces of management, of business, cruised to victory. This becomes a downward spiral; labor cannot get back their rights, workers see no reason to keep paying dues for nothing, and the organization fades away.
The Nation’s John Nichols is often so sunny on TV and in print that he can seem out of touch, but he told me in February 2011 – during the occupation of the Capitol – that Walker would likely survive a recall. He understood the shift in the power dynamic here. The unions were punched in the gut by Act 10, and they had a series of poor choices, which they bungled in their own right. This may have been a wake-up call to the left, but that should have happened the moment that Walker stripped workers of their collective bargaining rights. And if conservatives are smart – and on this stuff, they are – it will be just the beginning. Indiana went right-to-work this year. Wisconsin’s rollbacks on worker power have been cemented. Every other state currently led by conservatives will be next.
The labor movement represents one of the only remaining checks on corporate power, in the fight for economic justice. They have not proven themselves capable of withstanding what amounts to the final onslaught. Union density has declined from 33% in the 1960s to 8% today. I don’t think you can look at this result and say they’ve reached the bottom. Labor must come up with a different strategy to fight back. But there’s a question of whether the deck is too stacked against them now.




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Brilliantly stated, but accessible, as you so routinely do.
Thank you, David. I tuned out upon hearing the result last night, knowing that you’d have the facts to counter the bloviating required to fill several unexpected empty hours of cable “news.” I’m glad I waited to learn what went wrong from you. MSNBC was particularly useless, being so close to one side of the contest and gobsmacked by the result.
The only thing worse than Ed Schultz yelling on my teevee is Ed Schultz trying not to cry on my teevee.
From what I’ve seen of Barrett, he seemed a terribly flawed vessel for this movement. Americans — and apparently, especially Badgers — don’t like the concept of electoral mulligans.
PS Have a great time in Providence. It’s a remarkable example of a colonial city; see some of it if you have time to get away from the panels & hallway chatter at NN.
How long before Kochs buy Lehman.
We need a look at the computer software of the vote counting machines. Walker won by the same spread he did last time despite what was in over 119% ? voter turnout in Madison and very high numbers in Milwaukee? that 119% percent was from new voters registering to vote that day any bets very few were Walker votes?
Given the GOP base is older Whites and they are dying off even a year or 2 should have resulted in Walker getting less votes unless you can identify a new group that has either flipped GOP or started voting more that had not before Whites tend to vote already in very high numbers.
Come on tell me that in a high turnout election that unemployed people or people with a family member who is unemployed voted for Walker.
Tell me that in a high turnout election we lost when we had people outside everyday for months in Winter and Walker could not even get a counter protest for one day half as large.
This election was stolen.
Amen.
-stewartm
A slew of progressive candidates when down to defeat yesterday.
Norman Solomon in CA, Eric Griego in NM, Franke Wilmer in MT.
A dark day.
Labor unions are dead. There is no more pushback against employers or corporations. They’ve won. We should stop struggling, make our respective peace with the New Order, and those of us who are most capable may find a way to live within it. The others of us, well, some of us will fall.
What facts do you have to back that up election results Walker won Kenosha last I checked they shut down the Chrysler plant Downtown Kenosha last Wallgreens shut down its kind of was by the trolley if you want fresh food you have to bike unless you want a long long walk.
Unless Kenosha got some new jobs since I left how does Walker win Kenosha county when downtown was shutting down all the shops?
Walker won last night for the same reason that the Republicans won in 2010, the Democratic Party, under its current leadership, or lack there of, is a useless institution. They stand for nothing. They are a pale, watered down version of the Republican Party. True liberals are turned off by the corruption and lack of courage that has become the hallmark of today’s Democrats.
Until we have a revolution within the Democratic Party that throws the old leadership out we will continue to get the same results.
40+ years of propaganda and indoctrination by right wing belief tanks are finally bearing the intended fruits.
Are we to believe that any amount of ad dollars can balance out an economy with unemployment that high? When Walker was first elected he bragged tax cuts would create jobs and Illinois was going to lose jobs to Wisconsin because we increased our taxes?
We should poll Wisconsin people to see if there is anyone in the state who has not heard that Illinois has had lower unemployment numbers than Wisconsin for the last few years.
Unemployment trumps ad dollars in high turnout elections because we must assume the unemployed and their relatives and friends are voting if this was a low turnout election then I could see Walker winning but not in a high turnout election unless some tv talking head wants to claim everyone but the unemployed and their friends and relatives voted.
“The Nation’s John Nichols is often so sunny on TV and in print that he can seem out of touch, but he told me in February 2011 – during the occupation of the Capitol – that Walker would likely survive a recall. He understood the shift in the power dynamic here.”
He came to speak at the kick-off of our attempt to recall the MI governor. I was so embarrassed by the lack of turnout, especially since he and a musical band came all the way from WI, but given what you wrote, I guess he probably wasn’t that surprised.
Just what success did Walker run on jobs< fixing the state's budget debt by robbing Vets and not paying the bills so the debt rolls over into future years? His stand on Women's equal pay? His very unpopular Union busting ideas?
Point to me what makes Walker so popular what issue did he run on hiring felons?
One could see the WI vote as the chickens coming home to roost, or perhaps karma, for the unions in the 40′s and 50′s purging their ranks of the socialists and the communists, who happened to be the most effective organizers and strategists. The unions made a deal with the devil with the promise they would get their “share of the pie” if they just played along. They abandoned the abstract notion of the “working class” in struggle with the capitalist class. The unions are a mere shadow of their former power and influence.
Barrett actually took Kenosha by a percent.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/152346265.html
A ground organization trumps ad dollars have you ever heard unemployed people bitch in a bar Walker fires people, jobs leave the state and you get more unemployed people staying at their parents house who have nothing better to do than campaign against Walker full time if anything I bet we had more volunteers than last time. I will let the Wisconsin volunteers answer that one and abide by their judgement. I wonder how many volunteers Walker had outside of rural areas?
Today, the evidence for being dispirited is available for all to see, and yet, Organized Labor, if it wants to survive, must craft a “new” Strategy that can overcome and eventually prevail. And if white Wisconsin can’t do it, the Sonoran Desert “must” and will.
Take, for example, in several years, and on a monthly basis, 700,000 Chicanos and Native Americans will be turning 18 years of age, eligible and registered to vote, and they will. And that is America’s dilemma that will have to be addressed. Now, where will the Job Opportunities be located? And where will the Educational Opportunities be located?
Perhaps, an “new” and “improved” Progressive Dynamic will replace today’s Progressive Dynamic that also includes a new Leadership Component? And when a third of union households voted in the affirmative to continue the Walker Reign in Wisconsin, the “alternatives” for having to listen to the “Old and Tired White Dudes” does not have to continue and to the extent that is has, and which means that if Organized Labor is going to include itself in the Democratic Coaltion, Native Americans and Chicanos, will have a say in this too.
In closing, David Dayen has it “correct” with respect to his and today’s assessment, but he needs to go a step further.
Jaango
These two links were to be found (in two different comments) on some threads yesterday.
I think people don’t want to face that our elections are just more theft and kabuki.
Since 1988, e-voting known to be easily rigged
http://www.newsgarden.org/columns/dugger.shtml
And another small airplane crash conveniently offs a witness
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/22/republican_it_specialist_dies_in_plane
Nothing to see here, move along
Thanks I stand corrected Walker was winning last I checked but a percent win in Kenosha Bwahahha thats funny people on the train to Chicago laughed at me when I said I was looking for work in Kenosha some folks were taking the train to Chicago for jobs and this was right after Walker was elected and right before I moved to Chicago.
I don’t see how Walker gets a within a few percent of winning there.
You’re so right.
Checking links I will be back
Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups
Dead cat bounce. The legislature doesn’t meet until next January after the next election, I read.
Like winning Miss Congeniality .
“Labor” is dead. The writing was on the wall as far back as the 90′s. But the Dems just kept on with the same strategies theyve been using since the 50′s. They have no plan. Other than to dump all their money into Ohio, Penn and Florida in the general.
And like I said last nite. The people that I know who are in unions are only in unions because their job requires them to be. They have no love or loyalty for them. And occassionaly the feeling toward them is “You did WHAT?” when the union does some kind of negotiation.
And to boot, the jobs that most of us actaully do now dont even have unions. Manufacturing is dead and gone for good and wont ever be coming back. The Dems have no plan for this post union post rust belt world
Very well stated and clear-headed, if gloomy, analysis, dday. The recapture of the Wisconsin Senate is an important bright spot.
I had a spirited argument with my right-wing uncle this weekend when I visited the Milwaukee area. People who are true believers like he is cannot comprehend how anyone can see things differently. To him, I’m a “leftist” which in his eyes means “socialist.” It’s purely ideological view of the world.
I’ve always understood that the collective bargaining for public employees was part of a tradeoff, which included mandatory arbitration, in exchange for the right to strike. I’m not sure why public employees have not used this tactic, but it seems now that the election is over, the gloves may have to come off in that area.
what in the hell is wrong with voters in Wisconsin? Wisconsin the new Floriduh?
Don’t skip the gutting of a Thinking education.
Why do we need civics classes ?
Rote regurgitation is what passes for educating these days.
Corresponding with the demise of the Old Left, and the birth of the impotent New Left. McCarthy was more successful than anyone thought.
Yes…. those tax exempt think tanks like the Tobacco Institute, equating liberty and freedom to addicted servitude?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Institute
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2199&dat=19980503&id=iHYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FekFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6337,793431
Spot on Bluetoe2! Massive brainwashing via that little black box? Who funds these alleged non think tanks anyways? Our grandmothers whose common sense and wisdom knew smoking was a health risk, in spite of the lies offered by, “think tanks?”
I note these commercials today for oil, shale gas, viagra, antidepressants? All touting the “good” they do for society, until our dicks start to fall off! One of those unintended intended consequences. Like Lung cancer or pancreatic cancer or the plethora of diseases associated with being addicted to cancer sticks? Yup them Marlboro men are all dead! I do not buy the BS for one second back then nor now!
I am interested in looking more at the Obama undervote in NM. It was a pretty solid 10%, from what I could see just from comparing the top statewide totals for the Senate race. In other words, 10% of voters did not vote for Obama but voted for a Senate candidate.
There was one down-ticket surprise that is noteworthy, but yesterday sucked otherwise in NM.
Ok its about time FDL launch a campaign against computer voting machines we can talk all we want change a majority of people’s minds but it all comes to naught if Karl Rove can hire programers to fix vote counting machines.
Thats what happened in Wisconsin and the Media went along with it.
Just where is this new group that wanted to vote so bad for Walker when older Whites are dying off and very few younger minorities want to vote GOP?
Did Gays and Women ignore Walker and the GOP did unemployed people? Did younger people under 30 who favor Gay and Women’s issues have any reason at all to vote for Walker despite his stands on these issues?
Did Union Workers suddenly decide Walker was ok? High turnout election Walker’s base is dying off every year where did he find the votes?
The underlying problem
According to exit polling, Walker won 36% voters in union households. This is just the latest, but arguably starkest, demonstration yet of the turkeys voting for Thanksgiving.
The only explanation I can posit for this phenomenon of people voting against the ideology that is not only right, but tranparently serves their interests, is that they must believe very strongly in the wrong ideology. It’s easy enough to blame self-interest if people fail to comprehend something when their paychecks depend on their continued incomprehension. But when their interests run the other way, towards comprehension, and they still believe nonsense, you really have to posit that the problem is cognitive, that they really do believe the ideology that is both wrong and bad for them.
We need to stop denying that the reason the Golden Rule of Politics, that, “Those that have the gold make the rules.”, works these days, is because most people, even those without the gold, believe that the people with the gold ought to be making the rules. Most of us are convinced of some combination of these ideas about the people who have made a lot of money in our society:
1) they know more than the rest of us about how the world works
2) public policy ought to give them what they need to be successful, because, in their success, they create jobs for the rest of us.
The irony, of course, is that the very prevalence of the Golden Rule quickly destroys whatever truth there might have been to both 1) and 2) when markets actually were free of the tilted playing field that the gold buys in a system of crony capitalism.
Insofar as 1) remains true, the real world the wealthy know better then you and me is the world of good old boys, the world of the insiders’ club, not the real world of producing actual goods and services. A system that rewards people who build a better mousetrap would benefit all of us, but a system that rewards people who know who to lean on to have the govt build a path to their doors hurts us all.
But 2) is the worse, more poisonous belief. Cutting your labor costs is the easiest way to out-compete and succeed. It doesn’t require the genius and originality to envision a better mousetrap, or the hard work and practical know-how needed to realize the vision — it just needs ruthlessness and laws that let you be ruthless. But this success against competing business enterprises decreases demand in the economy as a whole, a process that turns into a vicious cycle as your competition has no choice but to follow suit in driving wages down.
Wisconsin voted yesterday for a future in which it will win by outcompeting Myanmar at who can pay their workers the least. But if the future really does belong to that vision, no one will win, not even the people with the gold.
We had what we can now see clearly was merely a brief fling with Social Democracy, with a political regime that recognized that demand and consumption in the econoimy has to be protected to keep it in balance with supply and production. We have reverted to the incorrect belief that we can succeed only if we do everything possible to make production as cheap as possible, even if that means leaving capital free to bludgeon the cost of labor down to and beyond subsistence levels. We’ve let ourselves back on to the track in which the self-destruction of capitalism again becomes inevitable. It stays inevitable until and unless we get people back to understanding that protecting demand is not some luxury we can’t afford, but is rather the key to keeping the system working for all of us, not least the people who profit most by continued economic expansion.
Your observation makes me chuckle:
” I am not completely convinced that striking would have been worthwhile, or in some respects, even permissable (sic).”
Oh noes!!! General strikes are banned by Tart-Hartley! The unions would get sued and the union bureaucrats in DC would lose their cushy jobs and their nice offices within site of the White House. There’d be no more $100 lunches and limousine rides.
Real unions, based on solidarity unionism don’t worry about Taft-Hartley and offices in DC. They don’t agree to no-strike clauses. They engage in wildcat strikes, plant occupations and other forms of effective direct action in defiance of the straighjacket that is the National Labor Relations Act (and the state counterparts that apply to public workers).
And the goal of real unions is not to elect “more and better” Dems.
Something very amazing happen last night
Obama won by 12% and Walker won
In Wisconsing the following had to happen
Progressives had to vote for Walker and OBAMA
or
Conservatives had to vote for Walker and Obama
keep in mind Walker is not a moderate Republican
and most conservatives don’t vote for black dem candidates
some will say the magical people who call themselves independents voted for Obama and Walker, really? the Wisconsin Independent must be made up of very, very, unique people ones that can vote for a black dem candidate and a hard line republican? this is simply amazing.
“and they done this in the middle of a depression? WOW!!!”
yes! the election was stolen last night
clearly other forces were in play last night
the Elites are clueless when it comes race base politics, no where in the history of USA politics have black candidate won by 12% as a Dem and GOP hardliner won also! “the idea of black candidate that is Dem winning state wide and hardline GOPer winning state wide is beyond bizarre!
George Orwell is smiling
Vote Fraud Sadly I don’t blame Wisconsin people. I do want to hear from the firepups who volunteered to get rid of Walker though I wonder if they saw the voters as evenly divided or leaning Walker.
The Wisconsin election told me everything I needed to know about this election year.
Obama is doomed and so are we. I’m no fan of Obama, I think he’s a pussy and a coward. Oh, sure, he got bin Laden, but when it comes to dealing with the repukes, he’s a fucking pussy. He’s as afraid of Rush Limbaugh as the repukes are. Between ’08 and ’10, he had a chance to stand on their necks, and punch the life out of them, and instead he embarked on an ill-fated, cowardly and destructive path of “bi-partisanship.”
He Obi wan Bama, you can’t negotiate with people don’t want to negotiate. They want to destroy you, they want to destroy everything in their path that works against the oligarchy.
What the FUCK were you thinking?
Romney is going to win. The ‘pukes are going to control both the House and the Senate, they’re going to pack the SCOTUS with their ideologues of Oligarchy and I will go to my grave, living in a feudal society, where there are no worker safety laws, where abortion is illegal, where vast numbers of people starve to death and where assholes like Rush Limbaugh get their every wish granted.
Give up and collaborate/join the fascists? This dual carder (CWA & IWW) refuses to do that.
The class war has been with us since the beginning of time. Now is not the time to give up the struggle.
No pasaran!
–Patrick martin
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/wisc-j06.shtml
Vote for any Socialist candidate on the ballot. Consider voting for Jerry White for President and Phyllis Scherrer for Vice President. Their website is http://www.socialequality.com/
What struggle? The vast majority on our side don’t have the courage to do what’s necessary to smash their side. They want to be “civil.”
If the Wisconsin election didn’t tell you we’re already past civil, you’re delusional. We must fight, my ANY MEANS NECESSARY, or we die.
BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
You are right I forgot about the two billboards people put up in Waterford Wisconsin saying Obama was a socialist.
I also forgot a conversation with my co workers on the farm I worked at where they blamed Hispanics for why we don’t have national healthcare in America.
Rural Waterford has morons waving Confederate Flags in their 4 th of july parade last I checked. Still small rural towns don’t have many votes.
Given Mitt’s lack of personality and ideas racism is the only reason a GOPer has to vote against Obama. The 30%ers can’t trust Mitt on abortion, they can’t be happy with tax cuts for the rich as SS and Medicare are cut.
I can see no positive to voting GOP, Walker or Mitt besides racism.
Ok I got to go now I will check the thread later I had to vent. Who knows maybe DDay will read the comments and respond for once or another front pager will.
What should it tell us that public unions can’t support themselves financially without relying on state-mandated dues?
Many excellent points, David, but I disagree about “neighbor envy”. It’s simply pocketbook economics for any homeowner. All those benefits for employees of public unions are paid for out of real estate taxes by people who simply can’t afford the tab anymore. I don’t think it’s an issue of being opposed to collective bargaining; it’s that we, the taxpayers, are struggling just to stay in our homes. The spirit may be willing, but the personal wealth is no longer there to support the dream.
Why did Germany outlaw electronic masturbation in a gaming booth, masquerading as a voting booth?
Because there is no independent verifiable way to recount the Cyphers on a computer screen.
Walker won 56.2% to 46.3%, a gap of 6.9%, and 17% of voters who will vote for Obama voted for Walker.
Suppose that half of the voters favor Obama, then that 17% of his supporters constitute 6.5% of the voters overall. Had they all of them voted for Barrett instead of Walker, that would take 6.5% away from Walker’s 56.2% giving him 49.7% and added 6.5% to Barrett’s 46.3% giving him 52.8%.
So the fact that Barack “I’ll put on my marching shoes” Obama was a no-show in Wisconsin may have been a deciding factor in this election.
Obama stayed away because he’s a coward and a fool. What a total disappointment he is.
He has no fight in him, and he will lose in November. Those of you who believe the notion of 17 percent of Walker voters are Obama voters are delusional. I don’t care what they say, I care about what they DO and they voted for Scott Walker. They WILL vote for Romney.
This is going to be ugly.
The workers seem to think that their 40-hour work week, rate of pay, safety regulations, retirement benefits and medical insurance, the fact that their pre-adolescent children aren’t replacing them at their jobs are just a natural order, result of some productivity study, or simply employer benevolence. The results from this could be a rude wake-up call. There were no unions before capitalism.
17% of the voters of Wisconsin Voted for Obama and Walker
yet again Wisconsin has some of the most unique voters on planet earth!
keep in mind conservatives don’t vote for black dem candidates! they just don’t however in Wisconsin we find conservatives that can vote for black dem candidate and an extreme rightwing republican
i repeat George Orwell is smiling
no where in the USA do magical independents vote for a black dem candidate and gop hardliner this only happens in Wisconsin
other force were clearly in play last night
the Elites want to continue the march toward Austerity at all cost.
the Elites have really over-reach here
how are USA citizens going to re-act when the 1st Black Dem President kill the New Deal? not well
Well stated.
Spoken like a true Republican. The percent of your property taxes going for union benefits is miniscule compared to where your taxes are really going.
Wow, talk about trying to put the last nail in the union coffin. Union bashers are over the place at FDL today.
Why don’t Unions open membership roles to anyone. Great article about Norway & Sweden and how they fought back.
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/01/26-3
It’s called protect the slave-owners!!!!!
A rueful smile, no doubt. Remember, he was in Spain with the Republicans.
Pretty much. Progressives are mostly cowards. That’s why the ‘pukes win. Progressives have no courage and no fight in them. They’re rather drive their Volvo SUVs with a Sierra Club bumper sticker and take their four kids to soccer practice than smash the oligarchy.
It is a sentiment out there among the electorate, though, also borne out in the rejection of public school levies. They don’t dig deeper to see the dwindling federal match and the local misappropriation.
“Walker won 36% voters in union households. This is just the latest, but arguably starkest, demonstration yet of the turkeys voting for Thanksgiving.”
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp
I wonder how life turned out for the 36.8 % who sided with Hitler, or how things are for the 36% of union households in the badger state voting for Walker? Sad how folks voting against their self interest, are duped all the time! Kind of like equating addiction/servitude to liberty? That’s what money buys in politics bullshit and lies.
Some people work tirelessly to make things better, and some are more apt to settle for spreading the misery around.
A mature person understands that the “Pursuit of Happiness” is best sought in solidarity with one’s fellows.
The mis-guided “rugged individual” will try in vain to do it on their own.
Protecting demand in the economy is not some luxury. Let them succeed at beating down the wages of public employees, and that not only means that those public employees don’t have as much to spend keeping up demand in the economy, but it also starts a vicious cycle which makes it easier for all employers to beat everyone’s wages down. And of course that’s exactly what’s on their agenda. “Right to Work” is next up.
If most people have less to spend, whatever way you get the money that you complain is so short that you can’t afford your property taxes, your income is going to get even shorter. That’s true even if you’re a 1%er.
Your income is someone else’s spending. Your spending is someone else’s income. You can’t rob Peter without also robbing Paul, you can’t take away anyone’s spending without reducing all of our incomes.
Spending on teachers’ salaries, when you look at all the angles, is probably about the most effective way to keep your own income high that you could come up with. Not that it wouldn’t be an even better deal if you voted to distribute the tax burden more sanely, more towards the people who actually have so much money that a little thing like property taxes doesn’t register on their radar. After they’ve used some fraction of 1% of their income paying for a raft of goods and services not much greater than what you and I consume, these people don’t spend their money on anything but nth order derivatives of anything in the real economy. They are the only people it’s safe to raise taxes on.
Stop letting these people divide you against other people in our same condition, the rest of us who have to worry about property taxes.
The problem is that too many citizens do not understand how their taxes are used. I don’t know what kind of info is blathered about in WI, but I’d be willing to bet that there’s a lot of lies and obfuscation about how everyone’s taxes are being so overly spent on Union workers in various ways. That’s how it’s done in CA, and like you say, it’s largely inaccurate.
Rightwing “think” tanks have done a very very good and thorough job at lying to the public and getting them to believe fairy tales.
That said, the Unions, themselves, are often their own worst enemy, and they, too, have done a lousy job in educating and informing citizens about what unions are, what they do, and what they cost. Combine that with Union “leadership” being all about money for the leadership, and well… this is the result: a woefully uninformed citizenry combined with greedy Union leaders skimming from the top.
Sorry to hear the WI results last nights. Once I saw that Walker had won, I turned off the tv. Thanks DDay for your usual incisive info about this train wreck. It appears as if the putative “Democratic” party did its usual Kabuki show, which consists of being stupid, weak and basically a no-show, esp in the case of NObama (unsurprised).
Well, what you see is what you get.
Many in unions these days are older and believe that they have their benefits sewn up for THEMSELVES. I see it all the time here in CA; older workers could give a rat’s patoot about organizing or demonstrating or what have you in terms of future generations. Like so many of us in these United States, they got THEIRS, screw everyone else. If the unions die? So what? I got mine. Too bad, so sad, get used to it. I’m willing to bet that a lot of esp older Union workers in WI think this way, too.
A pity.
Nonsense. Do you even own a home? Do you know where your taxes go? In my community, 33% of my village taxes go for pensions–not health care, not salary, not village services. That’s a big percentage. I’m a socialist, not a Repub or Dem, but I’m also a financial realist. You can’t ask people to pay increasing amounts when they’re losing their jobs and their homes. Until the deeper economic problems are addressed for all citizens, public unions will be in trouble.
Obama is more acceptable to Wisconsin voters than the recall or Romney because he is closer to the political mean of the Wisconsin electorate.
There is not any thing unusual about this.
One factor not mentioned in explaining why Walker “succeeded in keeping a stable 53% of the electorate in his corner” is that perhaps a good many US citizens, when it gets right down to it, believe in Walker and the policies he champions. Otherwise, one is left to assume that had Walker not spent so heavily, for example, then most folks would never bust up unions. Where do the likes of Walker come from anyway? They don’t arrive here from another planet. Maybe it ain’t the “leaders.” Maybe it’s us.
Partly true about so-called “progressives” having no fight.
The other side of the coin is that the Oligarchy has spent the past 50 years or so working tirelessly plus SPENDING big-time to get to this point. This has been a well-oiled and highly financed machine, and they got into it for the very long haul.
The problem is that leftists/liberals/progressives/what have you simply are not funded and supported in the same way that the right is.
Just this weekend I had a conservative friend of mine wax lyrical about how all the efforts at leftwing media have failed big-time, whilst all those “fantastic” rightwing media shows have been so “successful.”
I attempted to inform my friend that the rightwing shows, like Rush Limbaugh, are ALL loss-leaders and have been exhorbitantly funded by the very rich bc Limbaugh touts the message they want to get out. Rupert Murdoch poured TON$$ of money in Fox for years before it started turning a profit, and Murdoch got a lot of concessions, etc, bc of his “favors” granted to the PTB. My conservative friend *refused* to believe me and insisted that Fake & Limbaugh, etc, were always copious income-producers.
The left simply doesn’t have the kind of backing, or organization, that the right does. The left is outspent time after time after time.
Awright, which one of you’s got my Volvo SUV? You can keep the Sierra Club bumpersticker (see @ 29).
LOL!!!
where in the USA has a black dem candidate ran state wide won by 12% and you also find a hard line republican winning by a large margin?
where? oldgold
the politics of race tells us that this is not possible or logical
Obama won by 12%? really
Wisconsin has tea nuts that vote for black dems, and radical republicans?
i admire how the Elites made sure the WI senate went Dem
I agree with you. Unions are not popular anymore. Even my family or friends who support things like same sex marriage, abortion rights, etc. talk about the “union mentality” in terms of work ethic, and that’s obviously not a positive opinion. It’s in part of reflection of hard economic times, but that mentality existed even before the latest recession.
Good points, TCU. But you might be assuming that most people vote rationally based on available evidence. I suspect, especially in light of the overriding Fear and atomization in the US over the last couple of generations, that this is not the case.
Great point!
100% correct. Money buys votes. Big money buys lots of votes. And really big money can even buy legislators and judges.We’ve got a BIG problem here.
Unions have nothing to do with what happen last night!
did Unions get 16 trillion dollars of tax payer money? No, Wall Street bankers did
You got to love the Work Ethic of Wall Street Bankers! :) Wall Street bankers screw up and they get 16 trillion! what a Nation!
What happen last night was Bizarre
Last night 17% of people of Wisconsin voted for a Black Dem, and a Right Wing Nut Case
this is straight out of a George Orwell movie
So are you planning to just curl up in the fetal position and die? You complain about progressives not fighting but it sounds like you’ve pretty much given up.
I don’t disagree with you that the pendulum has swung back to the more conservative side of the spectrum, and liberals will probably suffer some additional set-backs. You don’t always win every fight, but if you don’t fight, you always lose.
No, I think people mostly were against the recall, and that explained a lot of what you saw. Still there was talk even a couple months ago that the issue of defending collective bargaining was not a winner in WI, and that if they thought people would rally to their defense in that area, they were wrong. So I think the poke at unions did play some role, though in general I think many thought recalling him for that reason was unjustfied.
“The people that I know who are in unions are only in unions because their job requires them to be. They have no love or loyalty for them.”
The idea that one’s quality of life is tied to the quality of the lives of their neighbors, that we have a social contract that binds us all together, is practically a dead letter in the US. Maybe we never really had it to begin with?
“The Dems have no plan for this post union post rust belt world.”
Ding! . . . well, not quite actually. Their plan is the same as that of the Reps.
I think you are exactly right….it IS us. Ever since the Reagan Democrats emerged the middle class has been shooting itself in the foot. I think most middle class people vote their prejudices and their hatred of the “other” and that’s what’s gotten us where we are now. Sadly I think it will take a Romney/Teabagger administration and 8 years of constant pounding on their necks and even then I worry that these people won’t wake up and see the light.
I can understand the 36% of union households voting for Walker. Is it not true that the removal of collective bargaining rights did NOT affect police and fire unions? That would explain it – ‘it didn’t happen to me, so I can keep the guy’. Perfectly reasonable. Stupid, but perfectly reasonable.
the politics of race trumps collective bargaining!
conservatives just don’t vote for black dems and right wing nut cases?
anyone who ever work in politics knows somethings just don’t happen
Obama won by 12% and Walker won by a wide Margin? this does not add up.
nice try
before collective bargaining their was the cancer of Race, and those of us who have work to help black candidates get elected have never seen anything like what happen last night.
black candidate on local levels, don’t win like this?
here you have a situation where 17% of population vote for a black candidate and right wing nut case? really?
I wish this was true, but I know it is impossible
so George Orwell wins
Obama just stiffed labor. He is only concerned about himself and his election. If anyone doubted it, this should make it clear.
He should have been there. He should have given a lot more support. He just stood by and let it happen. Least he dirty his hands.
I have to agree with you that Unions are not all that popular anymore with almost anyone, including a lot of citizens who are IN Unions. I hear it more and more amongst my “D” voting friends.
As I stated previously, I think the Unions have done a lot of damage to themselves. On top of that, for better or worse, some public service unions really took advantage of the “system” and got too greedy with their pensions. This does not apply across the board, and I truly don’t know the situation in WI.
It’s easy for me to pontificate from the outside, I admit, but I do hear a lot of Union-bashing, or at least not loving the Unions, coming from leftish citizens. Time to realize that a large percentage of our citizens either don’t see a need for or don’t agree with Unions. Whose fault is that?? To a certain extent, it’s happened because of rightwing propoganda, but what have the Unions really DONE to counteract it? I see very little happening to inform and educate all citizens from where I sit.
So: back to the drawing board by Unions? They should learn a lesson from this, one hopes, if nothing else.
I agree.
“We need to stop denying that the reason the Golden Rule of Politics, that, “Those that have the gold make the rules.”, works these days, is because most people, even those without the gold, believe that the people with the gold ought to be making the rules.”
A nation of scared, authoritarian followers is not only antithetical to democracy, it will also produce voting against one’s own best material interests. And 70 years of perpetual war and atomized consumerism will get you some seriously scared, authoritarian follwers for citizens.
Great post, btw.
36% of union households voting for Walker.
Has anyone pointed out that union membership (or at least payment of union dues) was required prior to walker. Is it possible that 36% didn’t really want to be in the union and have their dues taken if they didn’t feel they were well represented?
This is exactly the line the austerians are selling: “We’re not anti-union, we just can’t afford to pay.”
Instead of blaming the economic crisis on your fellow workers, why not stand with them against those who are really to blame?
The bosses always have their reasons for wanting you to work harder for less.
The working class and the employing class have nothing in common.
Any working class in Wisconsin who pays state taxes is the employing class over the public sector employees.
Walker… the Corrupt Republicans… Obama… the Corrupt Democrats…
ALL are a “blow” to labor.
ALL of our totally corrupt politicians serve the 1%… ALL are corrupt self serving scoundrels.
And of course Obama made no attempt to help… because of course he is a corrupt scoundrel.
The problem I have blaming this on money is just that you would think that money would have talked for more loudly to these union household voters in the form of money out of their own pocketbooks, than in the form of money used to buy TV spots. Whatever magic powers you want to attribute to political commercials, you would still think that pocketbook concerns would have burned through that power. I can see TV spots moving a bored electorate, that had no skin in the game, over the line to voting for the big buyer of ads. But union households? In this election?
Again, the only explanation I have for this is that large numbers of people sincerely believe some really bad ideology, thinking that is not only objectively wrong, but is bad for them personally. The people who voted in Hitler fell for nationalism — there were even Jews for Hitler who let the imagined interests of Germany outweigh concerns over what would only later be revealed as the all-too-real anti-Semitism of the National Socialists.
The best I can make of what bad ideology 36% of Wisconsin union put their faith in (and only hindsight is 20/20, we can’t do better than hunches and conjectures in understanding current events, compared to events 75 years ago), is that they really believe we’ll be better off letting big money run government. In a strange and sad way, it’s actually a testament to the power of selflessness over self-interest that union households would vote anti-union.
The other side, the folks who benefit from catering to production and supply, has no compunction about pushing the idea that what benefits them benefits us all, and pushing that idea well past any real-world justification. Those folks are all Job Creators, dammit, and to stand in their way is to threaten all of our jobs. We may not all believe that guff, but it is completely unremarkable for their side and “centrists” to say such things.
But try speaking such basic truths as, “your spending is my income, and my spending is your income”, and people look at you like you just sprouted a second head. Hell, people look at Krugman like he’s got a second head when he says that, and he’s got a Nobel to back up his credibility. Those of us with an interest in protecting demand and consumption seem to have stopped pointing out the quite true, and quite basically true, ways in which keeping wages up helps the entire economy, is vital to the entire economy, and not just the people who benefit immediately when their particular union wins wage concessions.
You don’t get it. The fight is lost because progressives HAVE no fight. The vast majority of progressives refuse to get down and dirty enough to win. The poster who said the ‘pukes are out funding us are right but the pukes use dirtier tactics to win.
We have to fight fire with fire and progressives refuse to. They’d rather be civil and lose than dirty and win. The fight has to be fought on a “by any means necessary” basis. Nothing short of that will succeed.
I am a life long liberal progressive… I stand up for what I believe in.
Which is why I wont be voting for ANY Corrupt Democrats or Corrupt Republicans in the coming election.
I will be voting… ONLY for Independent and third party candidates. There are NO ANSWERS to be found for the countries problems from Corrupt Democrats or Corrupt Republicans.
Corporate liberal/progressives are gutless cowards… as is evidenced by too many here.
Yep…
Obama is a traitor to the working men and women of the country.
Yes, it’s the tyranny of union bosses that grinds us all under its merciless heel! They control everything! Corporate interests quake in fear and powerlessness whenever the union bosses speak!
Was that ever true?
If ever even proximately true, is that “ever” any time in the last 30 years?
There was a time in this country when collective bargaining was protected enough that the owners could not use the inherent advantages of ownership to run roughshod over labor. When we had some sort of balance between the forces of consumption and production, we had unprecedented prosperity, with the owners benefiting most of all, because without demand, production will inevitably contract. But turn the owners loose, destroy any force that could keep them in balance, as we have done over a generation by systematically undermining unions, and the resulting imbalance is creating a secular contraction following the decline in demand as the owners are ever more successful at driving down real wages.
Yes, perhaps some, maybe all, of those 36% are convinced, despite all evidence to the contrary, that it’s those all-powerful union bosses the R ads never stop talking about that are ruining things for everybody. But that’s exactly the key question — how did they come to believe such a thing?
He didn’t want to dirty his comfortable shoes. He’s gonna wear them for some long-ass speech or something.
It’s the same nonsense that has convinced so many folks that most of their federal tax dollars go to “welfare mothers” and the like.
Someone said unions are not that popular anymore. I think that is part of it. Most people today are not involved with unions and the public perception of unions is not good. To tell the truth what we think of progressives are not going to carry the day either. The democrats are in disarray. Some are happy about that. But it also means there is no one to stand up for the middle class and the hard won safety net. I fear November could be our Waterloo. Just bummed out I guess.
You give up the ghost SFE…the rest of us will keep fighting. What a weak wuss you are!
That would include the well-compensated Scott Walker and the state legislature, who abated taxes for corporations, and then, since the abatements fail to increase employment, and tax revenue, not to mention doing nothing to improve the stagnant working-class wages of those “employers” so that the tax bite is less severe, hide the shortfall in increasing state debt. Those working-class taxpayers are paying for those, too. Funny how your scenario fails to mention them.
Obama changed the day after he was elected. He changed faster than Clark Kent when he went into that phone booth and turned into Superman; only Barack Obama turned into “corporate man”, or “banker man” or any and every other kind of man except the man we voted for. So don’t blame yourself for voting for someone who never existed. The very first thing he did was to dump all of his old friends, people who had been with him for 20 years or longer.
We have the best government money can buy, and it’s been bought; unfortunately it was bought with our money, yours and mine.
I’m with you. The “Democrats”, this phony liberal party of corporate stooges, is occupying the space an actual liberal party could be taking up.
The more pillars of support for this corrupt party that can be knocked out from under it, including unions, the better as far as I’m concerned.
Obama and the DNC abandoned Wisconsin in the same manner that they did Ohio, Wi, FL in 2010. They do not want to ;participate in any State fight. All money and political capital has to be preserved for the big one in November with Romney. Obama and the ;party elite have never come to the aid of Labor or progressives. How many of the big Democratic analysts came to the aid of Romney and Bain capital. Compare that list to the ones that have come to the aid of the movement in Wisconsin and Ohio for labor. People made a big deal of Obama not standing up for labor in the last month, even in refusing (Carney) to endorse Barret in the last week of the election. With the pro-labor movement in WI, and the resistance and defeat of Kasichk’ SB5 anti labor bill in Ohio, Obama and the DNC had two years to stand with labor. The best they could do is have Debbie Wasserman Shultz be shamed into making a single appearance without press coverage to hand over a check of unknown amount to the local party. Obama did not even send anyone. This is a big defeat for labor. This probably speeds up the timetable to make Wisconsin a Right to Work (for less ) state. If the labor leaders feel anywhere near as discouraged as I do right now, I am not sure how they will muster the ground effort for Nov.
I suspect the issue for the “left” is not how much money they don’t have in comparison to the right. Money is the primary resource of the right while human resources (i.e. labor) are the power of the left. The question for what passes for the left in the US is, “Where the fuck is your people power?” not, “Where is your money?” This may be why there is no difference between the Dems and the Reps. The Dems gave up on people and went in for capital.
It is over. There will be no actual liberal party. We will be forced to sit by and watch the decimation of the rest of our country. The Oligarchy has decided that the natural resources that can be stripped from the land are much more valuable than the citizens. We will be both starved and poisoned. And if we fight back we will be droned and/or jailed. I don’t see any other way to look at it.
With the resounding defeat of labor in Wisconsin, we are probably going to see a return to 1880s levels of anti-labor violence. So one of the questions becomes: will a President call out the National Guard, or use the standing military, to put down strikes?
It’s hard for me to imagine that Romney would not. Obama?
Turning to the narrower effort, just what is Wisconsin going to become? Is the University going to survive? What happens when we see people fired in job lots at a whim? It is hard for me to see how violence can be avoided.
Food!
BTW, please stop calling it “right-to-work.” Call it “scab.”
Let this be an inspiration to us all.
What is your definition of Socialist? Why would a Socialist complain about having to pay for the pensions of their neighbors or seem to miss the point about how individual well-being is tied to collective well-being?
You are 100% right. But there is a solution. It’s called “opting out”.
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogmay11/opt-out-consumer5-11.html
Obama…
Believes in NOTHING and stands for NOTHING…
Obama is just a typical self serving corrupt politician. There’s nothing more to the guy… just like Romney.
Bull …
I’m standing up for what I believe in.
Why are’nt you?
Obama’s administration was in on coordinating the police attacks on Occupiers so the question is will the Mittster do it cuz we know Obama will.
Which public service unions would those be, that “got too greedy with their pensions”?
How is it possible, from the point of view of the public good, to get too greedy with pensions, even assuming that any unions have ever been powerful enough to dictate terms to anyone? The pensioners are going to be spending the money they receive, it will all come back to the real economy as your income and my income. Can the same be said of the vast sums of money we have let the rich keep as a result of a generation of slashing the top marginal income tax rate? That stuff ends up inflating financial bubbles that benefit no one, not even the rich. If the public service unions had been greedy, at least it would have been greed that actually is and does good, rather than the real greed here, the Goldman-Sachs variety of greed, that we seem intent on letting tank our real economy.
Some public service unions have certainly negotiated better pension plans than what most workers get these days. But is that because the public service unions have outsized, destructively outsized, power, or that most workers these days have way too little power in negotiating their retirement plans? I mean, if they have any sort of retirement plan, if they have had enough power to secure any retirement benefits. Do public service workers really need worse pension plans, or is it not more true that the rest of us need better?
Insofar as this election was a competition between these two ideas, that public service workers need to be brought down to the level of serfdom they have already succeeded on reducing most of us to, vs the idea that all of us deserve something better than serfdom, and that all of us benefit when none of us are treated as serfs — was it really the better idea that won?
Would it have benefited the rest of us if the public service unions hadn’t been so “greedy”, if they had settled for worse pensions, or does it not rather help the rest of us when anyone in the labor market gets a better deal, by tending to make other employers match the better deal in order to attract and hold workers?
This entire article is a MANIFESTO… for cowards.
Stop voting for Corrupt Democrats and Corrupt Republicans…!
BAMN. Agreed, and solidarity.
Why did they think that running the guy that lost to Walker by 6 was going to have a different result?
Lots of blame to go around here. And I have the schadenfraude of not caring b/c I will never vote for a Democrat for any reason as long as I live. We need a new party to save us from Osterity that is coming no matter who wins the Presidency.
“I think most middle class people vote their prejudices . . .”
If most people typically made informed, rational choices that most benefitted their best interests, we would not be able to explain a single TV commerical. And if you can get people to pay $8/gallon for bottled tap water, you can get them to buy anything.
I suspect that it will take more than just 8 years of Reps, especially considering the Dems are not substantially different, for any sort of collectively beneficial social contract to emerge and any increase in the quality of life for most US citizens. I doubt anything short of the collapse of the US Empire–precipitated by Middle Easterners defeating us, at least economically, on the battlefield–will foster this. But perhaps I’m being optimistic.
Maybe these folks are already awake and just prefer prejudice and ideology to material benefit?
My short reading list to making sense of all this (if you haven’t read these already):
“All that Is Solid Melts into Air,” Berman
“The Mass Psychology of Fascism,” Reich
“The Authoritarians,” Altemeyer
“Homo Sacer,” Agamben
“American Theocracy,” Phillips
“What’s the Matter with Kansas,” Frank
I’m betting that if the collective outrage here were channeled into the actual creation of this ‘viable third party’, we’d actually have a viable third party…
Man, this is not just a defeat. It was a trouncing, big time.
Do I even own a home? Why, yes, ma’am, I do. I see my taxes going to big business and farming corporations ruining the environment, farmland raped so new, unneeded condos can be built. I see “consultants” being hired at exorbitant pay to convince taxpayers that new schools and stadiums are needed when the old ones would do just fine. Need I go on?
I see my taxes, land, and water going to build and maintain ridiculous ethanol plants. I see a lot of waste and fraud in my state that far, far outweighs what I pay to union workers. Union workers, besides being the machinery that keeps this state going, also spend in this state and keep other businesses going.
You pick on union workers when you should be standing with them, and you disregard where your taxes are really going. Shame on you.
One problem with that idea is that the other side controls more of the other means that become necessary when in the course of human events and so forth.
I saw a stat that had 2008 youth voters under 30 in WI was 22% of the votes cast. This time it was 13%. That does not bode well for Obumma in the General Election.
IMO, the US has not gotten “bad enough” for citizens to be well-informed about what’s happening.
I hear too many of my trad-Dem voter friends deriding the Occupy movement as a bunch of lazy slackers who don’t “feel like working.” Why? My friends and I are of a certain age and are LUCKY enough to have reasonably secure jobs, plus enough savings/pensions/what have you to *most likely* see us through to our end of days.
Even though most of my friends have kids who are struggling to get a foothold in a good job, they somehow remain *blind* to what’s happening to our country. Most of these friends wholeheartedly buy into the notion of American exceptionalism and they LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!!!!! when Barry Zero trots out one of tired-ass speechifyings about the shining city on the hill.
Seriously, to me, it’s truly like a LOT of middle class Americans are just Reganites now living in some fantasy land that simply doesn’t exist. Our citizens are good little authoritarians now matter how they vote, and really? What does it matter? Even my friends who have been Union members forever and profess to “support” the Union (which they should bc they have truly *benefited* from their membership BIG time) could care less about what just happened in WI. I doubt that they are even *aware* of it.
Our nation largely consists of self-centered people who live in the land of: I got mine, eff you if you didn’t get yours. If you didn’t get yours, it’s your own damn fault. STFU, eat shite and die.
Sad to say, that’s how I see it.
Yeah. Pretty frightening, that. I thought the vote would at least be closer. Not good.
Mary, go buy guns and ammo. I have a friend who inherited some guns from her dad. She’s not selling them or the ammo.
This was indeed an ideological defeat. Bad tactics won’t explain it, campaign money disparities won’t explain it, Koch Bro manipulations won’t explain it. The only thing that explais the defeat is that most of us who vote, even in relatively sane states like WI, have some very messed up ideology. We need to correct that problem to start accomplishing anything useful in politics.
“A slew of progressive candidates went down to defeat yesterday…”
They sure did, and we got our asses kicked in Wisconsin…the retaking of the Senate by a razor, notwithstanding.
This is what happens when you have a president who rolls over for the republicans like a trained poodle. Obama, singlehandedly, has created the leadership vacuum which the republicans are filling, as we speak, and he has long since abandoned progressives.
The least we can do is abandon him.
Wrong…
The American people are SICK AND F’ing TIRED…
Of the Corrupt Democrats and Corrupt Republicans.
Party Identification [as of 3 days ago]:
Republican: 24%
Democrat: 32%
INDEPENDENT: 38%………!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone still belonging to and supporting either of the two corrupt political parties… is BRAINWASHED.
That’s why I call it Moo-ve On.
Of the numbers of people who voted for Walker who said they WERE Obama supporters (I’d really like to see how that exit poll question was phrased…) the stat is all over the lot, from 12% to 17%. I don’t know how much of it to believe, it’s being so sensationalized.
But whatever the number, it seems that a substantial number of Obama supporters, or FORMER Obama supporters, voted to keep Scott Walker in the State House. To me, that is a terrible harbinger for Obama. I suspect that if the presidential election were held today, those same people would either sit it out or vote for Romney.
Drawing any other conclusion is whistling past the graveyard.
Don’t disagree with your numbers, but from where I sit, I still see far far too many citizens who are quite *complacent* with how things are. It’s because, for them & theirs, right now it’s still *not THAT bad.* It just isn’t.
I definitely get it that a LOT of citizens are hurting and having deep problems. Don’t get me wrong. But it’s just quite *bad enough* YET to make much of a dent in the majority of the populace. They are still quite happy to “take” what is dished out to them, and to come up with excuses for why the Occupy movement is happening – which is that “those people” are lazy & just don’t “feel like working.”
That’s all I’m getting at.
I do see me more citizen mis-trustful of the political process, and so, yes, more are registering as Independents. Hate to say it, but so what? Most Indies end up voting for the R or D candidate anyway. And then the quo remains status (or static as the case may be).
On it: The republicans have been trying to enshrine:
“I’ve got mine; fuck YOU, Jack!” as the national ethic, for a long time.
That the preznint who doubled John McCain’s electoral vote (with a LOT of help from progressives) is now aiding and abetting them is, I think, the worst White House sellout in our history.
As disgusted as are many democrats, and unless Romney campaigns with both feet in his mouth, Obama hasn’t a prayer of getting elected without substantial support from the same independent voters who went for him in 2008. How many people on here think he’ll get that?
Thanks.
Next!
I’d add: the notion that what happened in Wisconsin last night has no implications on the national level, is the stuff of idiocy. It was about as much a referendum on Barack Obama as it was on Scott Walker.
It was that much lower because the college kids had already gone home of the summer. There were several reports out there that, if they couldn’t prove they had residence here now, they wouldn’t be allowed to vote. At least half of the difference in the number may be attributed to that.
Yes. And I’ve long been saying that even if you never ever ever watch Fake or listen to Hate Radio (as I do NOT), you still end up hearing those rightwing talking points thru one means or another. It’s like those rightwing memes permeate the atmosphere in this country.
I watch little tv and listen mainly only to the classical music station on the radio, yet I could probably barf out a LOT of Rush Limbaugh talking points on cue. It’s kind of scary, quite frankly.
Less self-aware citizens, I feel, are powerfully influenced by this propoganda, even IF they consider themselves as liberal/progressive/Democratic. It simply doesn’t matter anymore.
I disagree with someone, up above, who said that money doesn’t really matter. I wish that were so, but I dispute that. I think money TALKS, or quite honestly, YELLS really LOUD. The media, including NPR/PBS/MSNBC, are all rightwing propoganda machines in one format or another.
Citizens are very much manipulated, and the prevailing theme is: I got MINE, EFF you. I see just about everyone buying into that mantra, frankly, no matter how they vote or whether they belong to a Union or not or whether they even profess to being a “socialist” (whatever the eff that means anymore).
I actually see an Obama loss in November with the way things stand now.
Don’t discount an October surprise, though. A terror attack, a market crash where Obama steps in to save the day, a burning building with a child trapped inside and an Obama rushing in to the rescue…
Ya know, something like that.
The Corrupt Democrats and Corrupt Republicans have “rigged” the political system to favor Corrupt Democrats and Corrupt Republicans… and continue to brainwash thier followers into believing that there are “ONLY” two choices… both corrupt.
Gerrymandering… bought off “pimp journalists”… brainwashed followers…
Not me… I can think for myself. As a lifelong liberal/progressive and a former Democrat… now a registered Independent [not affiliated with ANY political party]… I am working for REAL change.
Step one: STOP VOTING FOR CORRUPT DEMOCRATS AND CORRUPT REPUBLICANS.
We are thinking along the same lines.
In effect, Obummer *may* have shot himself in the foot by staying far away from this Union issue in WI.
OTOH, if the PTB really want Barry to “win,” then “win” he shall. IMO, our votes are not counted, so….
I think you’ve arrived at the key point here. Most people in this country don’t know who they really are. They’ve been brainwashed by so many different sources to just work, consume, and die.
Also too, so many of us are now in a position where our daily focus is, by nature of the current economy, solely on survival. We are no longer a nation of people who can afford to take time off to live.
Not having strong sense of self leads to exactly what you speak of above. A total vulnerability to the influence of others and a lack of critical thinking.
I quite agree with you and am pretty much following a similar course of action.
My point is that most voters, even those who have registered as Independents, are still not really “thinking for themselves.” And as I stated previously, the vast majority of “Independents” end up voting either for a “D” or an “R” on voting day. So their professed “Independence” really doesn’t mean all that much, IMO.
Just saying…
Look for the “John Doe” investigation to quietly disappear. Obama, in his spirit of “bipartisanship”, won’t have the guts to go after a Republican who just won an election in a state that he needs in November. Besides, the Obama administration only likes to go after Democrats, they don’t fight back.
Barry may be so despised come election time that Romney is the only option for the PTB.
I’m of the opinion that it just doesn’t matter in the long run. The faster we get to the bottom the sooner we can start climbing out.
With Romney I think the bottom will come quicker. With Obama people will still be hungry, jobless, uninsured, homeless, and dying. Just slower.
Yes, survival is now the key issue.
Add to that, we are fed nothing but bullshit, lies, hype and obfuscation quite deliberately by the corp-owned rightwing propoganda wurlitzer, so the vast majority of citizens simply don’t stand a chance of figuring out what’s going on.
I see it all the time with many friends who are quite intelligent, quite well-read, quite well-educated, quite well-traveled. On some levels, imo, they functionally illiterate when it comes to politics, and they fall for the propoganda.
I said to a conservative friend this weekend (albeit, it could just as easily been to a liberal friend with the same result): back in the day, the Soviet citizens *knew* that their print & other media was pure propoganda, and they found out stuff by the grapevine. In today’s USA, US citizens think they’re getting the “real news,” when in fact it’s total propoganda.
My friend thinks I’m totally crazy. Of course, he was also waxing lyrical about *insanely liberal* NPR is. I told him I called NPR: National Pentagon Radio. He tought I had “lost it.” So sad, really. Citizens are out to lunch for sure. I might add this is a man who belongs to a VERY expensive country club but lost his job about 6 years ago. Go figure…
Kris, I agree; anything could happen.
Obama has, effectively, been doing the bi-partisan drift (when he wasn’t actively helping the republicans…) for three and a half years. Other than Iraq (where he TRIED to sustain the occupation, as Jane has pointed out…) he hasn’t really taken down a single BushCo spinning plate…and they are slowing, as we speak.
Unemployment is an important yardstick of our economy, but the reality of the cost of living steadily climbing, along with corporate profits… right in our faces is unspinnable. I get “bill creep” on everything from phone and internet service to auto insurance, and it sure aint creeping downward.
Very little discussion of this. I think that will change soon. I hope so.
Possible. Time will tell. I am in agreement with you that I don’t think it makes all that much difference whether it’s Rmoney or Obamamoney. Despite what some think, the very very few *crumbs* that Obama has tossed to the 99% are nearly worthless and at best, the weakest of weak tea.
Rmoney will be horrid. Citizens will turn around and vote for Rmoney again in 2016.
I dunno. If that’s what US citizens want, then that’s what they’ll get. I guess they enjoy their Ayn Rand panty-sniffing fantasies.
San Jose mayor Chuck Reed argued “The city can no longer pay for basic services if so much of its revenue goes for the exorbitantly padded pensions of public employees.”
Shoes, shirt and hands.
When you combine with the recent Post story about how he never calls any Democratic Senators, etc., you just get the feeling he considers others not worthy of his attention–unless they are giving him money.
The acceptable societal norms have shifted as well. We’ve stumbled into this period of mindless, zombie patriotism since 9/11. Americans seemingly no longer question American diplomacy or foreign policy. Folks just blindly accept that we should invade foreign countries, that we have a duty to chase brown people wherever they may reside, that we are the world police, etc.
Even with the vast majority of this country now opposing the war in Afghanistan we’re still there. And where is the massive backlash from the public to the president’s drone program?
People just mindlessly accept that these things are necessary. Or even worse, people heartlessly ignore these perils because these perils don’t effect them personally.
The sense of community and neighborly goodness is gone from this country.
Interesting that you mention “bill creep.” Quite agree. EVERYTHING is going up in price, and yet we hear next to nothing about it… except rarely in letters to the editor.
None of the fakey-fake talking head pundits say bupkiss about that.
I noted that my landlady’s cable tv contract just changed for the worse, and she gets even LESS stations for more money. For her, it’s all tied into her phone & Internet, so she pays it. I think it’s a huge rip-off scame, but many citizens will keep on paying for cable tv even though it’s pretty much frickin useless and a wasteland of crappy shit.
People complain about their bills sometimes, but then they are mis-directed to point their fingers of blame at Union workers, as we see here in WI.
You raise a rarely-uttered issue here with ‘bill creep’. I’ve seen the same thing on all of my utilities and services. Car insurance, cell phone, cable, power, etc.
If wages are stagnant and the corporations offering these goods and services are more profitable (through stagnant wages, deregulation, and increased worker productivity…), why are prices increasing?
I can’t believe how he just abandoned ship in this Walker thing. Everyone knew this was a big watershed for labor, and he just let them twist in the wind.
Not me…
And I have a large group of Independent voter friends… ALL are saying they will not vote for Democrats or Republicans ever again… they can think for themselves.
The situation is changing… Independent and Third Party candidates now can actually WIN elections. It wont happen overnight…
We simply cannot continue to elect the same CROOKED POLITICIANS over and over and expect things to change. Why would they change…? Their brainwashed blind followers keep REWARDING them for what they are doing.
This cant go on any longer.
You must remember that it was the cities that agreed to these pensions in the first place. They were one side of the negotiation.
Pensions aren’t too high. The fund is too low. The people tasked with managing CALPRS poured money into mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps. Money evaporated.
A lack of sound investing is what’s left the pension fund in bad shape, not the size of employee pensions.
Oh yes. That same friend I mentioned before said that the ONE thing he “liked” about Obama was that he killed Osama bin Laden, plus he felt that the USA “Had to” use drones & continuing the killing overseas. Had no real explanation for why WAR Inc is necessary. Just that IS. But paying for someone’s Food Stamps was a “travesty” and a waste that just encouraged people to be lazy.
Yadda yadda.
Yeah, he felt that WAR Inc was great. Rah rah sis boom bah, and we have to keep fighting the terrisss or else.
Totally mindless. Totally brainwashed. But I could just as easily had the exact same conversation with my so-called “liberal” friends, although I do have *some* friends who are more aware… just not too many these days, sadly.
OH! But OFA sent an email yesterday AM encouraging Dems to go vote! Barry tried!
/s
Some local govt pensions are truly rotten in CA and def need to be renegotiated. San Diego City pensions are ridiculous.
But you make a good point re CalPers.
That’s good to hear. Glad you have friends that are thinking. Sad to say that I don’t have a lot myself. So I am a bit more cautious. But hey: good news.
So what does that mean? Would you like to emulate the tactics of the President that are under criticism right now and assassinate a few people with drone strikes? If you’re going to do the all caps BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY then have the courage to say what that involves.
Liberals, progressives, democrats whatever you want to call them have a choice at this point. They can wring their hands, blame money and voting machines and basically cry about how it’s so unfair, or they can sit down and brainstorm different strategies to bring people to their side. Clearly appealing to their better angels is not working. Clearly we have to go out and get them because they’re not engaged enough politically to come to us.
If people are selfish, so be it. Then try to drive home how it’s in their self interest to vote against conservatives. But if your solution is just BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, you end like Syria. Yes, those people are fighting valiently…and dying in droves. If that’s all we have left as a strategy, then I’ll curl up in a fetal position too.
I totally believe that Obama “abandoned ship” on WI. Why would you think Obama would’ve done otherwise? Obama’s never done anything more than toss a crumb (rarely) to liberals. Mostly he’s had his mouthpieces yell at us about how fucking retarded we are.
Didn’t you read Barry’s lips??? He’s not our friend. Obama’s kowtowing to the 1%. The end.
Sure. Some pensions are over the top. The argument for that would be the public sector needs to offer above-average benefits to attract talent from the private sector. I don’t necessarily buy that argument, but it’s kind of valid.
I just felt the need to point out the above at 147 because alan1tx and his fellow conservative friends love to take the pensions like those in San Diego and use them as examples to vilify the entire Union structure, or public employee pension structure.
The reality is that pensions like those in San Diego are outliers. Also, public employees provide a valuable public service that serves the good of the community as a whole and, arguably, deserve great compensation for it.
I don’t see conservatives crying about the Verizon CEO making $22.5 million a year while outsourcing jobs, yet they cry about career 911 dispatchers in San Jose making $110,000 a year after 30 years of service.
Fucking strange.
We’re on the same page, and I quite agree. Conservatives LOVE it when some CEO gets paid INSANE salaries & benefits, and then gets paid an INSANE golden handshake to be *fired* when they run the company into the ground. Shareholders often get the shaft, as well, but let’s all clap and cheer for US citizens losing jobs that are shipped overseas to China.
Makes no sense.
Most Union wages and pensions are fair or close to being fair.
San Diego was/is an outlier, but it was particularly egregious in how they set up the pension system, and truly it had NOTHING to do with attracting good candidates. It was a bogus rip-off and should have never happened.
Unfortunately, SD city officials & the unions did precious little to correct the situation, and then that makes everyone look bad.
Yes, I wish conservatives would apply their same harsh standards to the private sector, which is just as deserving – and more – of critical scrutiny, but sadly, conservatives will not tred there.
There are many things that can still be improved in the public sector, and I’m not averse to it. But I’m sad to see Walker crushing collective bargaining bc that’s a damnable slippery slope for ALL of us.
“He’s not our friend. Obama’s kowtowing to the 1%. The end.”
Bingo…!
If Chuck Reed, mayor of San Jose says it, it must be true.
Ignore the fact that, as mayor of San Jose, he has some interest in shorting anyone and any thing his city may owe money to, whether or not they in any way deserve to be shorted. He’ld be in big trouble if he tried to short contractors, who tend to have lots of lawyers. Not that, if San Jose is much like where I live, he’ld be really eager to cheat the people who fund his runs for office. It is at least possible that his belief in the exorbitance of the pensions of folks who served the people of San Jose their whole working lives might just be based on the fact that they make the easiest targets for cheating out of what they are owed.
I’ve never lived any place where the landlord didn’t charge me exorbitant rent, where the groceries weren’t priced exorbitantly, where they didn’t just plain rape you for a gallon of gas. I could go on, but I’m sure you’ll take my word for all of it. I’m at least as worthy of unquestioned belief as Chuck Reed.
One thing that heartens me, in addition to (it appears) re-taking the Wisconsin Senate:
it’s the number of people right here at the Late who are not willing to compartmentalize the shellacking we took last night. No endless parsing of minute “data”. Most of the regulars here are laying it, in substantial measure, on the doorstep of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue…right where it should be.
Effectively speaking, Barack Obama has been AWOL on every important fight that we’ve had, and in fact, has made sure that there was NO fight on a lot of important issues. He didn’t just start doing that after he and the democrats got their “We suck less!” fannies handed to them in the mid-terms: he “hit the ground crawling” when he came in, and it’s been downhill since then.
Happily, and encouragingly, more and more of the FDL “pooches” are becoming outraged with every succeeding sellout. :o)
And, I will add: David Dayen and Jon Walker are doing a fine job of “no more bullshit” reporting.
No slack for the assholes…and I’m not just talking about the republican assholes.
I’m going to go ahead and award you the internet for the day. You win.
He’s leading from the rear, dontchya know!
I should add, Kevin’s no slouch, either. :o)
> Walker’s Victory in Recall a Continuing Blow to Labor
TBogg’s response to labor’s losses and continuing non-support by the Obama Administration and his DNC? “Blow me.”
Here comes the fallout:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-election-map-shaken-walkers-160120302.html?l=1
Jumping to the tax thing: Everytime a republican shrieks about and discussion of increasing the taxes on the fatcats, Obama could have gone into the pulpit and racked ass with some simple and easily available stats about how low their rates have become, relative to the obscene amounts of money that are made, for example, off of sickness and aging in america.
That is, he could have done it when he had the political clout to enforce it. Now that he’s spent the past three-plus-years in the GOP’s political spay-and-neuter clinic, it’s all just bogus campaign kabuki.
That sense of community (***unity) is what makes Occupy so terrifying to the PTB.
That’s our boy.
Way more important for Tbogg to be ranting about Ann Romney’s walk-in shoe closet than talking about the weekly hosing we’re getting from Obama.
So when do we organize to ask FDL to sever their relationship with Mr. Bogg?
I deeply object to any part of my membership payments going to fund his work. I’m sure others here feel the same.
I didn’t stay up to watch the news last night, when i caught the headline of Walkers win in the paper my heart sank. Basically a bunch of old farts who hate the idea of a black prez and the gays getting married so much that they turned out in droves, their insecurities threatened by the massive right wing media blitz. All this as they cheerfully collect their “socialist” security and medicare…. unfortunately, they are further screwing us in the process for life… I see no solution. Where am I getting this? I have an elderly resident in a retirement home, and “all her friends feel the same way and vote the same way”…
Immediately…
I always try to give credit where credit is due…
Thanks for having the courage to say that. Bravo!
The US is a strange place. Fantasy is a big part of it (as a small cultural example, look at our films: we don’t do reality). I’ve spent four years of my life in other countries, both rich and poor, and, generally speaking, the folks in the US are the most scared, atomized and subsequently selfish. They are also, so far as I can gauge from my limited experience, the least free. As an industrialized country, in these respects we may be exceptional.
And how oddly un-American. The cornerstone of the political system in the US is checks and balances on political power. Isn’t that why we have three branches of government? If the check on capital is the counter weight of labor, then to reject that is to reject the essence of our system. Do these folks who bash unions and public protest consider themselves patriots?
It was the IWW that offered fresh approaches back in ’10. I’d think the Madison GMB would find a fertile field to create more dual-carders like you now that the approach of the business unions has been discredited.
Here’s my dilemma, which I mentioned in one of Kevin’s threads the other day:
Jane is the captain of this ship. The website is hers and I respect that. Jane is going through a really hard time personally and I don’t want to intrude upon her grief with petty bullshit.
However, what TBogg did on a couple of occasions last week was unacceptable to me as a reader. If it had happened on any other blog I’d simply leave. Not here, as I’m a paying member and believe in a lot of what this site has done and continues to due for the country and the community.
TBogg still hasn’t apologized to the people he insulted; only to Kevin for shitting in Kevin’s thread.
At this point I don’t see an apology, even if TBogg were to issue one, as being sufficient. His ideology is obviously in contrast to that of the other authors here and most of the community of members and commenters. While I see ideological conflict as a good thing, the conversation with Mr. Bogg and his regular commenters always seems to devolve into name calling and disrespectful exchange. TBogg seems to feel that he is intellectually superior to the majority of us and that we should just STFU.
As I said above, I don’t feel comfortable contributing money to this site knowing that some of it funds TBogg’s work. I know others feel the same but I don’t know how to go about putting that point across to the people that call the FDL shots without intruding on Jane’s personal situation.
Any ideas would be helpful :)
Kris; good question.
I’m sure that the…management…here is aware that more and more of the regulars are sick of his shilling for Obama. He got racked good on that earlier thread. Heartwarming, that was. :o)
Just for my 2c, I instinctively shy from tossing people, commenters or threaders, unless they’re really stupid and mindlessly offensive. Tbogg’s clever and funny; if we got him on our side, he’d be a plus, but sliding Obama for all of his shit, is, at this point, just unconscionable. Worse, it’s asking for more of the same.
As far as I’m concerned, he can pimp on his own threads all he wants. Currently, I can’t get on them.
But if he jumps into the discussion, as he did on that other thread when he told me to shut up, since I was just a commenter and he was a BLOGGER (The fact that it wasn’t HIS thread didn’t seem to bother him… :o) ) …
then, he’s fair game, and boy, did we hunt! :o)
As with Digby and some of the other shills, the fact that Obama keeps tracking right (while talking left…sorta-kinda) will put them so much on the defensive that they’ll have to start talking about reality, or they’ll just be hooted unmercifully whenever they post. That’s probably the best punishment. :o)
You have perfectly expressed my feelings about that situation.
Thank you. :o)
I’m all for TBogg being able to have his opinions and his forum. Fine by me. When he told a commenter here to “Blow” him, and jumped all over you (maybe it was you he directed the ‘BLOW ME’ at?) that crossed a line.
There are bloggers out there who say horrific things and insulting things all the time. TBogg actually mocks them on a regular basis :)
The difference between here and there is that my dollars don’t contribute to their work, but my dollars do contribute to TBogg. This is what I find objectionable and why I feel the need to do something.
I dont know what you have been reading…?
But TBogg IS… “stupid and mindlessly offensive”… thats the whole point.
And there is NOTHING clever or funny about the guy… nice try.
“They’d rather be civil and lose than dirty and win. The fight has to be fought on a “by any means necessary” basis. Nothing short of that will succeed.”
But the cost for that might very well be the identity of progressives. The difference between civility and “by any means necessary” is precisely at the root of the difference between liberals and conservatives. Indeed, the acceptance of “by any means necessary” is exactly the point where the left and the right become indistiguishible from each other on the political spectrum. It is not a simple tactical issue here. It is about identity and the philosophy that informs that identity.
Inexplicably, many, many conservatives point to the 1950s as the Eden–those halcyon days of the Greatest Generation–from which we have been thrown out. What was union membership and power like in those years? What was the tax rate for the richest US citizens? Not much other than fear and ideology can quell such cognitive dissonance.
I actually think he’s pretty intelligent and very funny on most subjects. He’s also probably a very good guy. Let’s not demonize him as a person because we disagree with his writing. Let’s stick to the issue of his insulting and condescending attitude of late. Name calling will get us nowhere.
TBoggs comments and behavior… make a bald face lie…
Out of any claim by FDL to be unbiased or non partiaian in politics.
TBoggs comments also make a bald face lie out of any claim FDL makes about respecting its members.
If FDL cant be responsible with one of its own writers… then something in terribly wrong here.
Changed? Was it a sellout or a con?
I think this is more of an indication that the majority of the people in the USA lack the education, perception, and courage to question the “wisdom” and propaganda of the plutocrats. The sheeple would rather have others do their thinking and just obey the authorities. Making informed decisions requires “hard work” and they’d rather be distracted by circuses.
I’m thinking about starting a diary to encourage conversation about this topic. I feel kind of squeamish with the idea of continuing these conversations on other authors’ threads. What do you think?
Diary = swept under the rug.
“I don’t see any other way to look at it.”
Have you tried looking at it through the prism of a few shots of wood alcohol?
That wasn’t the case with the whole Michael Cavlan issue a few months back…
Please lose the obsession with TBogg. Just refuse to acknowledge his existence rather than inserting his name into your posts. We get it. Your comments are better reading without mentioning him. Omit him and display indifference towards him. He thrives on our attention and shunning him is much more appropriate than giving him any form of recognition. This comment is also addressed to others here who are inadvertently allowing talk of TBogg to hijack the thread.
Heh. You’re not going to like the rest of the thread :)
The sleazy comments made by TBogg are appropriate to all threads…
This issue pertains to very foundation of what this site claims to be.
This is more important than that…
Although the MC issue was important and I have and will continue to support MC.
THIS issue goes to the very heart of what this site supposedly is and what it claims to be… so far, none of which adds up.
I don’t think social issues had much impact on this race. It was economic. Specifically, “I don’t have free health insurance and pensions, so why should I pay for THEIR health insurance and pensions?” Instead of asking, to me, the more obvious question: why is my employer screwing me with a jackhammer? Expect the politics of resentment and scapegoating to grow worse as our jobless “recovery” stretches into the next decade.
As for what this site supposedly is and claims to be, I’d argue that this is better represented not by TBogg’s comments and posts but by the vast collection of all the other authors that grace the front page. Jane herself has championed causes through her writing and action campaigns. TBogg seems to be an ideological outlier, and also an outlier in his crass approach to those that disagree with him.
I was just suggesting a diary to maybe provide a better forum for this conversation, and also to provide a place for others with an opinion on the matter to express themselves, without us being horribly off-topic in DDay’s wonderful post.
People like you are EXACTLY the reason progressives will always be losers. You do not have the courage to win. If your philosophy remains as it is, you may as well vote republican because it’s analogous. If you win, you can be civil. If you lose, you cry in your Perrier and ask “HOW CAN WE BRING THEM OVER TO OUR SIDE?
I don’t want to bring them over to our side. I want to smash them. Christ almighty, if people like you had been in France, there’d be no Bastille Day. Hell if you had lived in the 1700s, there’d be no Independence Day.
This is how I see it too. I have for a long time.
The question is, now, what can be done? I have no answer.
It’s not off topic… it’s at the heart of everything that is going on here.
It needs to be discussed in plain view… for ALL to see.
TBogg is NOT an outlier… his name is on the header… at the top of the main page. TBogg works here… represents this site… and speaks for this site.
“Citizens are very much manipulated, and the prevailing theme is: I got MINE, EFF you.”
An ethos of “I’ve got mine, fuck you” coupled with militarism, perpetual war, the amalgamation of state and corporate interests, deference to authority, more people in prison than any other nation, institutionalized racism, and worship of those with badges, uniforms and guns sounds like what kind of political system?
Kris, I’m with you, I really am. You KNOW it. :o)
Tbogg’s got a giant ego, and when someone calls him out, he can’t take one ounce of criticism without freaking and, as we saw, trying to pull rank.
My reluctance to ask for him to be canned, is partly because I like the idea that the Lake is an open forum, where people like Shooter, for example, who’s usually ignorant and dishonest, can still be heard from. My 2c, I don’t want us to be like…Little Green Footballs, where deviating from the peckerhead catechism is instant reason for banning.
The debate about HAVING to support Obama because Romney would be worse, is going to become more acrimonious as we get closer to the election. I think that FDL is likely to become THE forum for its happening, and I that’s not something that I fear. In fact, I’m proud of it. We ARE the best blog going, for cutting the bullshit, and I feel that at this point, the most pernicious bullshit isn’t coming from the republicans: it’s coming from so-called progressives who think that criticizing Obama and putting pressure on him to come out from under his desk is somehow a betrayal.
In fact,the most preposterous thing that Tbogg said in that argument was that the people who are critical of Obama are driving readers away from the Lake.
It was self-serving blather. I think that posting at most of the liberal blogs is down, and it has a lot more to do with the fact that Barack Obama, after an historic win, is causing a lot of good people to lose heart because he’s led us back into the political shithouse, than it does with people courageously and truthfully taking him to task for doing it.
I also appreciate and share your concerns for Jane. She’s a smart, courageous, lady, and she’s been a great spokeswoman for our side. I didn’t know of any personal problems, other than her health situation, for which I send her a good thought and best wishes.
Yep. Union leadership and Dem party leadership are both corrupt and pathetic.
I’m going to step away from the TBogg conversation now. Sorry I fueled it for so long in this thread.
What I wrote was not my philosophy (it is possible to think about something without believing in it). It was a description about identity and politics. The point being, by behaving like a political opponent, one risks becoming indistinguishible from them. How does one reconcile behaving like a “by any means necessary” (the refrain of ideologues everywhere) conservative without turning into one? “By any means necessary” is not a tactic. It is a philosophy. It is a reflection of one’s politics. Ever wonder why so many left wing revolutionaries end up ruling like their right wing predecessors?
We are politically opposed on this account: If your desire is to smash an irrevocable, enemy Other, if questioning your own tenets sends you into a myopic rage, if your idea of winning and civic responsibility consists in getting rid of those with whom you disagree, then you sound like an ideologue, and those folks bore the hell out of me.
And Independence Day? Who do you think those Founding Fathers were? What do you make of Shay’s Rebellion? You are now going to defend the very same kind of folks that you have previously deriding on this post?
No apology necessary. It’s something that needed to be talked about.
and probably, will again.
Your comments do not indicate you to be “with” KrisAinTX.
So far… this site has NOT been responsible.
We all argue and debate issues all day long… thats not what this is about.
So thats it…?
lol
I don’t give a SHIT about the “founding fathers.” I’m talking about the rank and file. The ones who got shot dead and the families they left behind.
If we lose, our identity isn’t relevant, because if we lose, we return to feudalism. That is what the repukes want. Castles with moats and billions of serfs who can be worked to death, and readily replaced with other serfs.
The average progressive is dumb as a box of rocks. You’re in the box.
I solicited ideas on how to approach the problem and you provided nothing but sensationalist language and negative input.
What do you want from me? I’m not here to champion your cause or be your hero.
Agreed.
I just scrolled through the entire thread, and couldn’t find a single TBogg comment. Did I miss something??
My response to you was not negative… my only difference was with where to do it.
Do a diary if you want… I’ll be there.
If Democrats can’t win in a progressive state, it must mean they’re not progressives anymore.
Nope. His comments were on two of Kevin G’s posts last week. One on Saturday and one last Wednesday night. It got brought up here by storyofo and it’s been weighing on my mind since I read the comments, so I figured maybe we could flesh it out.
What do you think about me creating a diary to provide a place to talk about this?
Okay.
I’m not sure on the diary idea myself. I don’t know if that would be ‘appropriate’. The only other option I can think of, though, is to send an email directly to Jane. I don’t want to do that.
On edit – I feel like something needs to be DONE. I feel the same as a lot of others here; that we progressives whine on the sidelines far too often. When there is a problem we just point it out. I see a problem here and feel the need to DO something, anything.
Why…?
If you care about her… shouldnt she know that one of her own writers is trying to ruin the reputation of her site…?
Norman Solomon may be a good guy–I don’t know him personally–but his emails were lame. I got a lot of them and none of them made me think he was someone to support.
I just got an email from Trevor Thomas with a downloadable pdf of his proposed programs. It says a lot about why liberals lose. I admit I haven’t read it carefully, but I invite anyone here to go out to his website and look over the economic/jobs proposals. Good lord.
KrisAinTX…
There were a lot of members involved on the threads TBogg invaded. Talk to all of them and then do a diary if you want.
Maybe we can all agree on a statement… which then can be sent to the people running this site and Jane. There are all kinds of possibilities…
“ThatGuy” is full of piss and vinegar and seems to enjoy vilifying “progressives” while lacking the perception to recognize the duopoly of our “two party” system. In his comment @192 he associates our current situation with support for Republicans, which reveals his inability to abandon partisanship. He also fails to offer any concrete solutions, so treat him as you would any small child throwing a tantrum.
This is what I’m hoping for. My difficulty is in talking to everyone that was involved or has an opinion on the matter. I don’t exactly have an email list with everybody’s addresses :)
A diary was the only way I could think of to spark the conversation in the first place. I was hoping people would see it on the sidebar and weigh in.
Any ideas on how else we might get in touch with folks? I don’t want to start a flame-war here, just a genuine conversation about a genuine issue.
Lehman won by 779 votes; there will be recounts.
But, in the long run, the district, the 21st, which elected Lehman will be a goner. In November the 21st District will be cut apart, with the rural and suburban areas going into the 22nd, and the 21st will be only Kenosha and Racine. The formerly rectangular 21st, running from Racine on the east through suburbs and into the rural west of the district will become a narrow sliver of the two aging urban centers along Lake Michigan as the 21st with the outlying areas from it and the 22nd forming a huge crescent around the two urban centers.
Check out the before and after maps in this Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel report on the Republican redistricting: Scroll down to the third set of maps, but not miss the first two as they all show how gerrymandering can be done.
Hard times acomin’ to Wisconsin. Unless the voters wake up and smell the corporatism and cronyism.
Maybe Walker will be indicted, but that’s faint hope.
Here in CA, virtually every damn one of them.
Well, in CA you can do it by getting the legislature to approve a retroactive — and unfunded — 50% increase in the fomula by which your pension is calculated. And you get this passed because public employee unions are the vehicle by which most Dems get elected. And you get the unfunded part by having the unions and their elected Dem cronies control the CalPers board which sets the actuarial projections and ROI formulas used to determine the pension fund’s liquidity and ability to pay future benefits.
Both. The problem is dual; many public employee pensions are too high, and virtually all private sector pension plans are inadequate. In CA, we have 18,000 public union retirees with pensions over $100K. We have retired elementary school district superintendants making over $250K. A former LA County Sanitation District supervisor’s pension is $279K.
Here’s some more examples:
“The average state worker retiring in 2009 with full benefits received a pension of nearly $67,000 a year.
Local government workers in California did even better. Looking at his own town, Contra Costa, (Contra Costa Times Reporter) Borenstein found an average pension for new retirees of $85,500 annually.”
“Though government workers don’t automatically qualify for Social Security, about 65 percent of the retired government employees who are members of CalPERS, the state’s government-employee pension system, do get Social Security benefits because the state (emphasis added) has made contributions for them for years.
The average benefit comes to $19,000 a year. So sweet are California’s pension deals that a report by the state’s Little Hoover Commission, a government watchdog agency, estimated that the average government worker retiring with full benefits and Social Security will get 109 percent of his final working salary as a pension.”
Source: http://city-journal.org/2010/20_2_california-unions.html
The ideal would be equilibrium: more modest, realistic pensions for public employees and much better defined benefit pensions for private sector workers. However, the lavishness of many public employee pensions has not resulted in any improvement in those of private sector workers. Partly that’s because the public employee unions have not gone to bat for labor in general. They’re always quick to ask for public support for themselves, but notoriously unwilling to go to the mattresses for private sector workers. The end result is that private sector workers who fund these public employees pensions naturally find themselves resentful, as their taxes go up, services go down, and personal family finances continue to decline or stagnate.
My comment @215 was meant for you. I inadvertently replied to “ThatGuy”, which doesn’t really matter, but I didn’t want you to miss my comment.
I saw – think it was on MSNBC – that only 62% of union voters in WI voted for the Democrat for governor. WTF??? So, yeah, it’s possible to likely this election was stolen (although I htink Walker may be gone soon in any case).
Also, if we don’t educate the unintelligent lower class white people in this country, we will continue to be screwed. Until we find a way to show them that balancing a budget in a depression is not a good thing, until we figure out a way to show them that they are voting against their own best interests, we are screwed….or we are on our way to a revolution.
Oh, thanks for the head up. I read it. Also, I very much enjoy your comments here at FDL.
Nothing wrong with a little piss and vinegar. :)
I rescind my recommendation in.re. TBogg in my comment @186. I just returned to the front page and there he is again. The more his DailyKos posts are featured here the more it diminishes the quality and value of this site.
That such a boot-licking lackey for Obama is given such prominence here is disgusting.
Please read my most recent comment @223. Mea culpa.
Just remember that its almost always better to be “pissed off” than “pissed on”.
BP, I don’t understand why you slag these pension plans so much. It seems to me they take in pension promises what they give away in salary and benefits while working. I wouldn’t mind some plan whereby everybody gets enough to live decently in retirement and old age, but I don’t know what plan that might be other than a better Social Security system. What are your thoughts on equalizing pensions fairly?
I’m not a very good one to ask because most of the time I’m not sure what would be and wouldn’t appropriate. TBH, it doesn’t feel appropriate to me, but I’m just not sure.
I’m just sorry that kind of thing happened.
No prob, carry on!
I wonder when they’ll stop front-paging TBogg’s work.
His regular readers don’t like putting up with us firebaggers.
You don’t think I was with her in her comments on Tbogg?
You must have learned to read in South Carolina. :o)
I just don’t want to gin up a move to try to get him canned. I think that’s wrong. When he starts playing Charlie McCarthy to Edgar Bergen’s Obama, he’s got plenty to deal with, already. :o)
In fact, that thread above, where he’s dug up Andrew Breitbart’s decaying corpse to beat on, instead of talking about how we got the shit kicked out of us…again, and how Barack Obama was too cowardly to set foot in Wisconsin on behalf of the recall effort or to lean on the DNC to to help out, is a perfect example of what a shill he is for Obama.
Glenn Beck, is that you?
“The average progressive is dumb as a box of rocks. You’re in the box.”
See, this is exactly what I’m talking about. Who else has an immoveable, bigoted, fundie ideology, objectifies not just their opponents but also anyone who disagrees with them (to include the sympathetic), and whose only response to critical inquiry is to sling ad hominem attacks? You sound like every right wing fanatic I’ve ever met. It is unfortunate that I don’t meet the standards to be counted in the ranks of the People’s Front of Judea.
“I don’t give a SHIT about the “founding fathers.””
Then why bring up Independence Day as some expression of popular revolt? The “rank and file” who supported it were a distinct minority (about 1/3 of the population, give or take). Do you think the Stamp Act cut into the profits of the rank and file? How odd to vilify the current crop of 1%-ers while applauding the actions of a previous group. Well, they were . . . exceptional?
Woah! Woah!
I’m a dood.
Indeed. But I suppose that depends on one’s particular kink. :)
Btw, one of the best political books I’ve read this year is “Everybody Talks about the Weather . . . We Don’t: The Collected Works of Ulrike Meinhof.” Highly recommended, if you haven’t read it.
LOL!
Actually, Kris, you’re wrong about the reasons for both the high pension benefits and the unfunded liability.
The union was not one side of the negotiations, it was (effectively) both sides. They unions represented their side, and their support of Dem candidates made the Dems on the other side beholden. Plus, even though reps of unions hold only 6 of the 13 seats on the CalPers board, four of the other seats are held ex-officio by elected officials, which means that even when we’ve had a GOP Gov, enough of the other seats were held by Dems to control the CalPers board. In addition, every member of the board is a CalPers member, with a CalPers retirement benefit.
As for the unfunded liability, there are multiple causes. First, in 1999 the legislature approved a change in the pension calculation formula (from 2% of salary times years worked to 3%) for some state workers. And they made it retroactive. A worker with 29 years of service and about to retire at the 30-year mark suddenly got a 50% raise in their pension. Overnight, a $30K pension became a $45K pension. A $50K pension became a $75K pension, and right up the line to upper echelon folks who saw an $80K pension become $120K.
Even though this was originally limited to some state employees, by making
it a legal option for other categories of public workers to get the same increase in the formula, this set off a competition where municipalities and school districts were played off against each other with the argument that if they didn’t follow suit their best employees woud transfer over to jobs with those agencies where employees already had the new, vastly better deal.
There’s also the case of how they cooked the books on pension fund projected return on invested income. They continued to use excessively high and unwarranted figures like 8% annual compounded ROI. While some economists have attempted to defend this using looooong term historical data, the fact remained that for decades CalPers continued to use that level even though the true return averaged about 2-3%. Even now, in the midst of this Great Recession, CalPers has only recently lowered its ROI projection from 7.75% to 7.5%. You know anybody who’s getting a true annual compounded 7.5% return on anything?
BTW: Those historical 8% ROI figures? They include the Post WWII middle class boom period of the 50′s – 70′s, where the averages for those years are measured in comparison to the Depression years where ROI was very low or even negative. Not hard to look good by comparison.
“We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60′s. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary’s trip. He crashed around America selling “consciousness expansion” without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously… All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped create… a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody… or at least some force – is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.” –HST
I always flash back to “Killing Zoe”, where Eric Stotlz’s character says to the hooker something like: “$200 and I can’t pee on you”.
Thanks for the recommendation. Ever since reading Eduardo Galeano’s “Open Veins of Latin America”, I’ve been reading almost everything he’s written, when not reading dystopian fiction. I have to limit my intake of non-fiction. It’s just too surreal.
I actually had an adult conversation with TBlog. I called his Balloon Juicers on the needless snark. People really hate snark when it’s used to debase a person’s ideas. The Balloon Juicers and Kosman Kosers are known for that sadly.
Okay. I see your point. However, victimizing current retirees or even current employees is not the solution to this crisis. Increasing contributions slightly, protecting the existing monies through safe investment, and setting reasonable expectations for incoming employees going forward should satisfy this issue. If that doesn’t work the state can fund the deficiency through a small sales tax increase. The state needs to keep its commitments.
Thing is many of the bearded Boomers turned into Golden Sacks criminals. Sad.
Sadly, regrettably and fearfully in 100% agreement with you. FDR’s legacy is now all but gone. Our ability to wage even a mild guerrilla insurgency was crushed on 21 Jan 2010. At 57, after a life time of hard work, I look forward to my 12 weeks of retirement, which will be spent clipping cat food coupons. Followed by an early demise due to a lack of health care.
Whoa… Whoa… Whoa…
“We got the shit kicked out of us”.
NO… we did not get the S kicked out of us…
YOU go the S kicked out of you… thats right… brainwashed Democratic worshipers got their A’s kicked again.
As for TBogg… he speaks for and represents this site… so if that is what this site is about or what it has become… then we need to know the truth.
KrisAinTX did NOT gin up anything… and your misrepresentation of what Kris is saying… says all about you.
TBogg himself ginned this all up with his comments… period.
I don’t have health care insurance either, but my advice to you is a result of dealing with a potentially fatal diagnosis (Stage IV cancer) that taught me the following: Declare yourself as a self-pay customer and negotiate the best price possible. i.e. the pricing for my radiation treatments were quoted as follows – $60K w/insurance; $30K w/ Medicare; $13K cash. Don’t resign yourself to be a victim of the USA’s primitive “for profit” health care industry, bargain for the care you may need.
Yes, I think a lot of people are going to tweet their vote for him instead of go to the polling place.
Before I respond I need to put forth my bona fides regarding unions, public and private. I am a union member and a previous member of two other unions. (All three private sector.) My father was on the Exec Board of his union (back when that was a good thing). My parents met at a union hiring hall where my mother was a secretary. Later she taught grade school and then spent the last 25 years of her working life as a municipal secretary, retiring with a combination of SS and a modest CalPers pension. I’m not anti-union in any way, except that unions must adhere to their original purposes and ideals. I remember my dad ranting about how much he hated the Teamsters union because it’s corruption and connections to the Mafia put all unions in a bad light. In a way, that’s what the excesses of public employee unions have done today.
The idea that pensions are deferred salary is correct, and yet it is also inaccurate, esp. with respect to public employee pensions. It used to be, back in the days when my mother was working for the city, that public employees made a trade-off: they earned less in salary than private sector workers in similar jobs but they generally worked better hours (little or no overtime), had great health care, and were promised a modest, secure pension.
Over time, that changed. Due partly to wage stagnation in the private sector (in many cases exacerbated by the decline in private sector unions) and partly to compensation gains through collective bargaining, public sector workers began to make more, often significantly more, than their private sector counterparts. Building inspectors began to make more, on a net annual basis, than the tradesmen whose work they inspected. Secretaries and administrative assistants earned more than their private sector contemporaries. And so forth.
My big complaint with public employee unions is that has prostituted the process, and lied to the public about what these promised pension benefits, esp. the undeserved retroactive formula changes, would cost. The union-controlled Dem politicians went along with all of it because they knew that the true costs wouldn’t come to roost for years. The pain was “out there”, in the future. They also knew that the public would probably not approve the increased taxes required to concurrently fund those future costs. Well, now “out there” has become “here and now”. And the result is probably going to be the worst case scenario:
Taxes will go up, but much of the new revenue will go to backfill unfunded pension liabilities, not maintain public services.
As a consequence, voter support for public employee unions will decline even further.
New public employees will be forced out of traditional defined benefit pensions into 401(k) plans (which will prove to be a scam and totally inadequate for retirement).
As for your question about how to construct an adequate, reasonable pension system:
I think that public sector pensions need to have a ceiling. There is no reason for a retired public employee to have a pension of more than about $60K. Remember, all those folks who have high-dollar pensions make high-dollar salaries. They have plenty of time to put their financial house in good order prior to retirement.
Private sector employees deserve defined benefit pensions, with the full amount pre-funded and segregated into a separate account supervised by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation, where neither the company bosses nor the union officials can screw with it. The government needs to set up GSE cooperatives so that vast numbers of small employers can set up pension plans. (The problem with defined benefit plans for most small employers is that the employer often goes out of business long before many of its pension obligations reach maturity. Look at all the mom-and-pop places put out of business by the big box stores. Look at all the restaurants that have gone out of business during the Great Recession.)
“Also, if we don’t educate the unintelligent lower class white people in this country, we will continue to be screwed.”
Perhaps, we will continue to be screwed so long as we condescendingly insist that the lower class is unintelligent and needs to be educated? The right wing at least speaks to them decently. And both corporate parties fuck them over so how unintelligent could they be to at least prefer a superficial modicum of respect over none at all?
Actually, here’s some excerpts of what Chuck Reid, the Dem Mayor of San Jose said, along with a few snips from the article, and the link. (Emphasis added.)
http://news.yahoo.com/insight-california-citys-pension-vote-precedent-u-152533643–sector.html
Although I generally detest Republicans, as I’ve noted before, back in the late 90′s they accurately predicted that with the new, overly-generous pension benefits that CA would eventually face a “pension tsunami”, they were right. The scramble for high ground is now in high gear.
Great points. Wow.
Yes… great comment.
I’m all for working men and women… the working class.
It’s astonishing how many pension systems… are stone flat broke.
Thanks. The problem is, as I see it, that the unions and the Dem party have both forsaken their original principles and goals. And unfortunately, a lot of innocent people are going to suffer mightily until or unless we right the ship, which is NOT GOING TO BE EASY.
I think I see: as with so many other systems, the elites running the system got corrupted and therefore inevitably ruined what had been a reasonable system. Is that about it in a nutshell?
> I think that public sector pensions need to have a ceiling.
Hey, I like that. Fits nicely with my “maximum wage” proposal.
And of course, the only solution possible is to go after those overly generous pension benefits. No way should we even consider raising taxes so that the publc can pay off its just debts freely entered into, and also keep essential services running. Oh, wait, raising taxes so that CA or its subdivions doesn’t have to act like a deadbeat, is now impossible thanks to those prudent Rs you generally detest.
A sovereign, such as Greece, for example, even hints about failing to pay every thin dime it owes Goldman-Sachs, debts acquired by the former govt under circumstances that should probably have many of the creditors in jail for fraud, and the Rs call for the smelling salts. But cheating public service employees of monjey owed them — that’s admirable, that’s adult, that’s what needs to be done, the only way out of this mess of their creation. Don’t break your general rule of detesting these guys over this case.
And the people the Rs protect with their carefully-calibrated prudence are well past due a raise in their top marginal rates sufficient to support the public services and the employees that benefit them most of all. Leaving all that money in their hands rather than putting it to good use leads to it being lent to Greece, or thrown at some nth order derivative that has nothing to do with capitalizing anything in the real economy. And yes, supporting vital public services involves not cheating the people who provided them, and who agreed to work for otherwise inadequate wages because they were dumb enough to imagine that their govt wouldn’t welsh on its debts to them and reduce the pensions that are part of their pay package after the fact.
Want to save money in the future by not offering new hires the same retirement package, fine. But let’s not cheat people who made a deal with us, and deserve our thanks for teaching our kids, putting out our fires, and saving our lives when we need emergent care. Let’s definitely not cheat these people when there is no real crisis, when we are leaving zillions in revenues on the table by not taxing those who can pay, and will not use money we leave in their hands if we don’t tax them for anything but inflating the next financial bubble.
You’re right. There will be pain. There has to be.
I like your idea of capping the pensions at a certain amount. If you take $60k a year plus social security you’re looking at somewhere around $75k. That’s a pretty solid retirement income. Hell, it’s a pretty solid income period.
Public workers would revolt, I’m sure. There would be a huge uproar. A gentle reminder that $60k a year kicks the shit out of nothing a year would probably quiet things some.
I don’t know of anyone who agrees that if the money for paying pensions isn’t there, that those funds should be extorted from people. But there are plenty of legislative levers for demanding concessions/shrinking benefit payouts.
These of course aren’t dollars and cents issues, though antiunion activists have wisely cast them as such. People can certainly buy into the idea of “hey we are BROKE, and they want WHAT?” It’s a simple calculus, passes the fairness threshold on the individual level. But it ignores that this is really an existential issue of workers’ rights and the means for influencing legislation.
I’ll be the first to admit that unions/union leadership has been terrible stewards of the working class and have really failed to shift their reason-for-being from political protection to advocacy and apolitical/nonpolitical outsider action and agitation. But suggesting that unions just buckle under and give up whatever they’ve bargained for because some free-riding private sector worker has $20 a year deducted from his pay for education in his state/municipality is just kind of gross. Those public sector workers keep the economy humming too, hence paying those private sector salaries as well.
And finally: shrinking pensions/eliminating collective bargaining/crippling unions because they’re too focused on protection and not enough on activism moves us not a whit closer to economic growth, pay fairness, work autonomy/respect. It just means wealthy people and corporations pay less taxes. I realize that sometimes you do things because they are right in themselves not for their connection to other actions, but really, kneecapping unions and pensioners fails to achieve both fairness or economic benefit.
Would you be okay if California levied a tax against corporate profits to cover the pension shortfalls?
I can’t say for sure if I’d support that seeing as though I’m not a Californian and know little about what consequences such a thing would have for that state. My guess though is that it would pretty darn easy to fix this situation using the legislative levers available, but because everyone’s so fucking scared of the concept of raising taxes, even in California, they float a regressive cigarette tax.
Hmm, let’s see:
Funny thing about that: in CA, voters have to approve tax increases. And over the years they have approved some and rejected others, the same way they approved lowering the margin needed to pass school bonds from 60% to 55%, which resulted in almost all subsequent school bonds at all levels being approved.
Also, you act like raising taxes on the public is a magic thing, where the tax revenue comes in but somehow the lives of the working taxpayers aren’t adversely affected. A big argument for Obama’s temporary 2% decrease in the employee FICA contribution is that it is an economic stimulus that puts more money into the pockets of taxpayers, who then spend it. But taxing money out of taxpayer’s hands to pay for excessive pensions is somehow a good thing?
As for paying what was promised, remember that the vast majority of CA retirees got a 50% retroactive increase in their pension formula more than halfway into their employment. A person who retires in 2012 with 30 years of service got the benefit somewhere in 1999 – 2001 of the jump from 2% to 3%. Let’s say it happened in 2000. That means that 60% of their employment term (18 years) — going back to 1982, was retroactively gifted.
One proposal that I’ve seen is to reform the pension system by allowing workers to keep the 3% formula that they earned up to now, but reverting all future calculations to the old 2% formula. That won’t change the funding needs for current and near-term retirees, but it will stop the bleeding for pensions to those that still have 5-20+ years to go. Remember, since Jan 1, 2006, GASB rules have required public pension funds to account for their future liabilities on an accrual basis. That means that a lot of the money that is being swept into the CalPers account is to pre-fund pensions for workers with many years to go until retirement eligibility. Cutting the remaining years of their formula by 1%, compounded across millions of workers and decades of remaining employment, would greatly ease the competition for money between pension obligations and current public services.
Gtompkins —
And as for those pensions being
That’s just it, they weren’t freely entered into by the public at large. The public employee unions control the Dem party and are crucial in getting Dems elected at every level from local city council and school board on up to the Governorship. Elected statewide Dem officials and public employee union leaders dominate the CalPers board. During negotiations there is no one who represents the taxpayers, no one who does not have a vested interest in increasing pension bennies. Both the elected officials and the unions lied to the public continuously about the true costs of these pensions and the funding liabilities of the various public employee pension funds.
Then don’t voters have the right to vote in Republicans that will rein in the unions if they’re so displeased with Democrat/union symbiosis? If it’s such an onerous weight, then use the ballot.
But when workers have no protections whatsoever, what leverage do they have?
Have you seen the gerrymandered CA assembly and senate districts? Historically they’ve been a joke. Even the new ones, produced by the new “Citizen’s Commission”, have some, let’s say, “extraordinary” shapes.
Besides, the public employee unions and Dem party officials have taken advantage of the two-party duopoly situation here in CA quite effectively. Many Californians are liberal/progressive on social issues — LGBT, immigrants, envionment, etc. — so Dem politicians have been able to ride into office, and stay in office, by combining liberal positions on those issues with public union money and manpower. But they were only able to do that by hiding the eventual true cost of those pensions. Now they’re exactly in the trap the R’s predicted: pension funding demands are competing with and crowding-out funds for on-going services. Meanwhile, the overall tax burden is such that the voting public won’t approve most new taxes or increases in existing taxes.
Therefore you get the somewhat contradictory situation, where Dems continue to be elected but voters continue to disapprove of the tax increases those very same Dem officials scream are necessary. The public isn’t cutting off it’s nose to save it’s face, it’s cutting off what it perceives to be a cancer in order to save the rest of the body.
But when workers have no protections whatsoever, what leverage do they have?
I’ve never advocated public employees having “no protections whatsoever”. I’m all in favor of public employees having a right to collective bargaining. What I’m against is an unholy alliance wherein public employee unions and elected officials who are beholden to those unions can shut out, lie to, betray, and dupe the general public.
And if others like you were wise, you’d follow the same strategy. At a time when we are desperately trying to rehabilitate the image of all unions, it is disastrous to have article after article, newstory after newstory coming out with abosultely true and irrefutable stories about excessive public employee pensions. A headline “18,000 CalPers Pensions Over $100,000 Per Year” does not endear public employees to voting taxpayers at large.
Again: instead of calling workers “cancer,” take to the polls. Your argument doesn’t really address my point. Saddle up, convince people to vote Republican. If the situation is dire enough, you’ll set aside identity politics and drop the hammer on those damn unions.
It’s funny how unfazed folks are about banks stealing untold triliions but riproarin furious about a 30 year employee retiring with dignity ($100,000 in California is hardly a mint, especially considering his/her home is worthless now).
Outliers like those 18,000 employees (and they are extreme outliers) guide the media discussion, but Jamie Dimon’s a smart chap, at least.
I would like to add that when you have employees retiring at 109% of their final year’s salary, you don’t have a retiree and a current employee doing their old job. What you have in effect is two people getting paid for doing that job.
First, you would be hard pressed to find anyone (short, perhaps, of someone who was unlawfully foreclosed on) who is more upset with the rapacious bankers and the fact that virtually all levels of government and law enforcement have let them get away scott-free.
As for $100K not being a mint in CA: Depends. Your claim that people retiring at that level have worthless homes is, I suspect, wildly incorrect. Rememeber, that’s someone who has a 30-year pension. Chances are their home has been paid off for quite a while and even though it is not now worth what it was a few years ago, they still have substantial equity.
Second, if you have a $100K pension (not counting what a spouse may have, and not counting also having a separate SS pension), you shouldn’t have to tap your home equity, so relative home value is only an issue in terms of the estate you’ll leave your heirs.
Third, as for those $100K pensions being outliers:
18,000 outliers? Or the fact that the number of school system retirees with pensions of $100K or more increased by 25% in one year?
And what about the average current state employee retiring with a $67.700 pension? (Plus, in 2/3 of the cases, a SS pension averaging $19K?)
Fourth, public employee retirees in CA continue to be covered under their health plan until they reach Medicare eligibility. Then, AFAIK, the state plan picks up the portion Medicare doesn’t, so those folks don’t have a Medicare Advantage premium deducted from their SS.
As I said earlier, public employees deserve a reasonable and secure pension. They just don’t deserve to live like mandarins while taxpayers in general get increasingly shafted, esp. when that occurred because the unions and their elected Dem puppets lied to the public when they gave away the store.
We live in a nation with millions of union retirees: 18000 Californians making over 100000 doesn’t shudder me especially when the average union pension in this country is less than 30000 a year. Sorry.
If only anyone could control the Democratic Party, for any purpose benign or malign, and if only that party were in turn capable of any coordinated plan of action, benign or malign…
So your theory of this crime is that it was the public service employees unions, with the Democratic Party, in what, the parlor? While seemingly totally incompetent nincompoops, incapable of taking even the most elementary steps to seize or use power effectively at any level of govt, these criminal masterminds turn into veritable ninjas once we aren’t looking and they get a chance to sneek into the back room with SEIU.
Look, the Dems have had the majority in CA for years. They had the trifecta at the federal level for two years and did nothing with it to consolidate, much less use, their unfettered power to advance the nterests of labor. They don’t use the NLRB to support unions. They don’t use DoJ’s Antitrust Division to bust trusts. They don’t use SCOTUS appointments to put labor-friendly justices on the bench. They give the keys to the Treasury to Goldman-Sachs. They punt on regulating a financial industry whose lack of regulation almost totally tanked our economy 4 years ago.
But all that is just an act. They threw everyone off the scent but you by what you have to admit is a pretty good acitng job at being totally in the hands of corporate interests, and totally anti-union. Good thing you’re around to keep us straight.
Millions of retirees nationwide isn’t the issue. Public employee pensions are state-by-state. When 18,000 public employee retirees in CA get more than $100K annually, voters in the state of California will naturally take notice. And most will take offense.
Right, I realize that it’s a state by state issue. Even in California they are still the exception, not the rule. And what’s the end result of shrinking pensions? Less money in workers’ pockets, more in the pockets of the wealthy.
Is it so hard for you to understand that Dems use public employee unions for their benefit, while at the same time ignoring and undercutting private sector unions whenever they discern that they can get away with it?
As for the ability of the public employee unions and elected Dem officials to become “veritable ninjas” with respect to public employee pension back-room deals: Yeah. Because the historical record of what happened proves it.
Public employee unions supported Dem candidates who, once elected, approved excessive (in some cases retroactive) pension benefits. Said elected officials and union leaders then lied about the true cost of those pensions, and collaborated in using a ROI projection that continually proved, year after year, to be exaggerated by about 300%. Those are facts.
As for your mention of SEIU: Those initials stand for Service Employees International Union. It represents private sector workers like hotel maids, food service workers, etc. Public employees in CA are represented by various bargaining units of public employee unions. Public employee pension fund contributions are managed by umbrella entities like CalPers, CalSters (for teachers and school officials) and a host of smaller, special interest units like those for the CHP, L.A. City, City of San Diego, etc.
But I’m done arguing with you on this one. I’ve cited the statistics, the history, the supporting articles and studies. All you’ve done is claim that I, and the public, must be wrong, because public employee unions always do good and are never corrupt. Sorta like Zero is always good and never corrupt?
Got it.
Sweet little right wing rant you got going there, and a bunch of the hornswoggled agreeing with you. Rove and the Koch’s salute your effectiveness, as they can’t do it without you!
California is the exception?
http://247wallst.com/2011/04/29/ten-states-where-pensions-are-running-out-of-money/3/
Wall Street Journal via HuffPo — April 29, 2011
Ten States Where Pensions Are Running Out Of Money
The ten states listed are (from 10 down to 1, the worst). (With excerpts; emphasis added.)
Pennsylvania –
Mayland –
Colorado —
Massachusetts –
Kansas –
Oklahoma –
New Jersey –
New Hampshire –
Illinois –
Kentucky –
So, by some measures, CA isn’t the worst-off state. However, by another measure, our half-trillion dollars in unfunded public pension obligations makes us the worst.
That’s it, I’m out.
And BTW: Some experts have predicted that Illinois’ retirement system will run completely out of money in about two years. I guess we here in CA can take some solace in that.
You know, I was thinking the exact same thing. But it doesn’t make sense from this commenter.
I keep thinking I must be missing something. I usually am.
Did you read my previous posts? Checked my union bona-fides? Analyzed any of the statistics and links?
I’m a supporter of public employee unions. In fact, unions in all occupations. I’m just enough of a realist to admit when unions have sold out their members (see Trumka, Gerard, etc.) or lied to the public about the costs of lavish public employee pensions.
Why don’t you try refuting any of the specific points I’ve made, any of the stats from the articles I’ve quoted or linked? Or is it that you can’t do it, so labeling me a right-winger is all you have left?
Here’s my point:
Unions, especially public employee unions, have to be a little like Caesar’s wife; above reproach. There is a huge amount of anti-union sentiment from the oligarchs. Throw in some from the 99% who let the advances made by blacks via the union movement sour them on unions. But when unions and their Dem cronies conspire to give public employee unions pensions that are, by any objective measure, somewhere between excessive/undeserved and outright lavish/obscene, it just plays into the hands of the rightwingers. It gives them ammunition.
It’s sort of like a witness in court who has had an extra-marital affair. It just gives the opposing attorney a chance to ask, “So, if you lied to your spouse, why shouldn’t the jury think that you are lying here?” The argument may be specious to the matter at hand, except for the fact that it impeaches the witness’ credibility.
You should read Matt Stoller article at NakedCapitalism.com today about how Obama is responsible for leaving the left in “smoking ruins”. I posted some key excerpts on PW’s thread about the WI Senate going Dem. Stoller nails it completely: when you sellout your people, they stop becoming your people. He details, quite succinctly, how the sellouts of Obama, the Dem party, and all the Veal Pen PINO orgs, has influenced many former supporters to cast the party aside. As long as Dems are seen coddling public employee unions and not doing jack shit for private sector employees, those private sector employees are going to blame both the Dems and the public employee unions.
I was saying California is the exception vis. the “exorbitant” pensions. Where I live in Missouri, for teachers, it’s 60% of the average of your last ten years of employment, and teachers pay a lot–quite a lot–into it, and we pay into SS. The lion’s share of states are just like Missouri, not like California.
And yes, I understand there are shortfalls. I made that clear here and in other threads. But banks caused those shortfalls, not teachers and firemen. I want the wealthy to fill that gap, you want retirees. Fair enough.
Oh, and in my district, I haven’t seen a raise–even a cost of living raise–in four years. Plus we’ve been furloughed in three of those years (which amounts to a pay cut).
Again, all this could be yours if you vote Republican (never mind we have a “Democrat” in Jeff City). Damn unions. High on the hog.
Wrong again. The bankster-induced Great Recession is certainly responsible for some state and local revenue problems. But here in CA and many other states, the problems started long before the financial meltdown. CA handed out it’s gratuitous doubling of the pension formula in 1999, and within two years it had spread throughout most of the public employee bargaining units.
The underfunding of future pension obligations goes back, at least in CA, even further, to the early 1990′s. Calpers has been using that phony 8% ROI figure since Bush 41 was President, if not before.
As for retirees filling the gap: not current ones. But as I pointed out earlier, there is no reason that we should not negotiate to reset the formula for remaining years of employment at the original 2% rate. Let’s take a hypothetical:
Employee retires with 30 years and a salary of $50,000. Twelve years (2000-2012) covered by the 3% rate, the other 18 years (before and after 2000-2012) @2%.
12 years @ 3% = 36% of $50,000 = $18,000
18 years @ 2% = 36% of $50,000 = $18,000
That’s a $36,000 pension on a $50,000 salary, or better than 60% — plus annual COLA’s, and in CA, the post-employment health care bennies. To me that’s a fair pension based on salary. But in fact, the current average pension for a current retiree with 30 years of service is nearly double that amount, $67,700. And up to about $86,000 if they’re in the lucky 2/3 who also get SS.
I’m glad your state is not on the list of the most underfunded. But you have to recognize that some states have more visibility than others in what is partly a PR battle. Headlines about California, Illinois, and New Jersey help stoke the rightwing talking points. And those states contibute inordinately to the electoral vote totals, as well as wielding massive power in Congress.
Hmmm… CALPERS, after the tech bubble burst, and interest rates were forced to rock bottom by Greenspan, didn’t they have to turn to the only earnings-producing, seemingly safe investment at the time, mortgage derivatives? And if they hadn’t been whipsawed by that little Bush deregulation implosion, would those pensions be better covered? Just askin’.
You asked Andrew, but I’ll chime in:
Yes, CalPers went for the mortgage backed securities to offset the humongous drop in state revenues when the dotcom bubble burst. However, CalPers needed to find those big returns promised by the MBS because by then it had been using that phony 8% ROI figure for something approaching two decades. I read one story about this a few years ago that showed that even during the dotcom bubble years, CalPers had still not achieved an 8% ROI level, compounded year-over-year. Not even for just two straight years, during a massive boom cycle.
As for Bush deregulation implosion: you forget, it was Slick Willy Clinton, Bob Rubin, and Larry Summers who were responsible for repealing Glass-Steagall and enacting the Commodities Futures Trading Act which prevented oversight of derivatives. Clinton and the DINOs set the stage, all Bush did was attend the performance.
Sure – happy to demolish your arguments in segments with authoritative proofs. First, the SCOPE of this 18,000 at over $100k in retirement benefits.
Today, there are 225,098 total active CA State Employees, 197,765 full time. So compared to your 18k? Those retirees are less than 9% and less than 8% for total employee base. So you cherry pick outliers to start with – classic conservative tactics, comparing apples to oranges.
Teachers, the largest public employee union with somewhere around 340k members are paid on the average $67,871, and certainly don’t get a $110k payout – because only 18k do get such a payout.
And union membership? In CA, SEIU is biggest with about 700k members, and the teachers? About 340k members. Out of a state with 37 MILLION in total population. So somehow the 340k and the small smattering of the rest of the public unions, prolly totalling under or about a million, somehow make all the policy?
And oh by the way, the banks had something to do with all this. CALPERS lost $60Billion in the crash – none of which is due to any pensioner.
I’ll be back with even more rebuttal – I haven’t got warmed up! And I meant what I said last night – isn’t Scott Walker your preferred outcome for WI, given what you say about CA?
While you’re warming up…
The 13 members of the CalPers board make the policy on investments. The public only has a vote on four of those 13, who serve by virtue of their public office.
Progressives and Dems always argue that unions are the only major offset to massive amounts of rightwing money. That’s true. But most rightwing money comes from a very, very small, almost tiny, number of extremely wealthy contributors and corporate-front PACS. It is offset by…?
Exactly: Money and manpower and endorsements from unions in general but particularly public employee unions.
If a small number of union members relative to the overall population couldn’t influence how many Dems get elected, why would their money, support, or endorsements matter? Answer: they wouldn’t, but they do, because they produce results.
And as I pointed out in my previous posts, CalPers was chasing the high ROI of those MBS because it was looking to backfill a pre-existing unfunded liability that arose because…
CalPers itself and the Dem politicians they support lied and deceived the voters about both the cost of future pension obligations AND the expected ROI of previous investments.
No, Walker was not my preferred result in WI. Barrett was a flawed candidate and no real friend of labor, but what was important was the over-aching frame of the situation. This was a test as to whether a citizen-led, grassroots outbreak could successfully challenge the government machine. As someone else pointed out, this would have been a great piggy-back on the defeat of Kasich’s bill in Ohio. It would have inspired and energized others to take to the streets and get involved in other ways. It might have shown some Dem politicians that voter support is as important, or more important, than support from fatcats.
Sure, I would have liked to see Kathy Falk win the nomination and the recall election. That didn’t happen. Occupy Wall Street wasn’t a sustained success, but it sparked a movement that may arise and become even greater.
I look at Barrett’s candidacy sort of like us lining up with Stalin in WWII. Sure, it would have been nice to have a Russian George Washington or Thomas Jefferson or FDR leading the Soviets, but that wasn’t the case, and defeating the Nazis was the true prize. Having Walker survive that recall with the margin he did is sort of analagous to Germany and Japan winning WWII because we wouldn’t ally with Russia.
Bottom line:
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t argue that union money and ground support aren’t critical to Dems winning elections, and then claim that unions don’t have any impact on decisions made by elected Dem officials. That happens at the Presidential, and to a certain degree, the Congressional level, but not very often in blue states.
Nixon began the dumbing down of America and it started in rural areas, and then inner city as I recall – but it could have been simultaneous. I am not saying these people have low IQs I am saying the USA gave them a less than mediocre education (so they would be easily led in wrong directions). We no longer teach logic or how to have individual thought. If you know any teachers, ask them what’s going on in their classroom – particularly inner city. Things have gotten much worse, and it’s all to the good for the oligarchy.
so using “intelligent” in the “intellectual” type of way, not “IQ”
This is probably too late for anyone to see it, as I suspect there won’t be much traffic to this thread at this late date, but I realized that I should make clear:
When I was speaking of how public employee unions manipulated the pension programs here in CA, I was referring essentially to the union leadership. They sold these increased benefits to the rank-and-file as, “Hey, see what great stuff we got for you. Re-elect me!”. But they and their Dem cronies hid the potential costs from those members.
So now you have situations where public employees, both active and retired, see their own children and grandchildren frozen out of college because of skyrocketing tuition costs. They see elementary and secondary schools taking big budget hits. They see street repairs and police service and fire response times and paramedics and all that stuff taking it in the shorts because pension obligations are squeezing out funding.
The off shoring of the Industrial base killed Labors core. It was meant to and it had it’s planned result. No plants no jobs no Unions and a great BIG FU to the working people of America. All this done under the watch of Repuke and Dino Presidents over these last 40 yrs. The beginning of the end for the Unions was ironically Nixon’s visit to China in 1972. AS for the Pub. Service Unions they can’t expect nor will they get much sympathy from the average private sector worker, small business person or farmer these days. Why? Because, of a variety of reasons some real some such made up and some believed whether or not there real. Sadly, its now their turn in the right wing meat grinder and when all is said and done many of them will be joining the ranks of the permanently unemployed. Some though will and have struck the jackpot and will retire with huge defined pensions ( almost unheard of in the private sector now) plus great Health plans etc. The right has used all of this as a wedge between the private and the public worker and they’ve done it effectively. They know how to fight class war and their no. 1 weapon is as always divide and conquer. If we take away anything from the terrible defeat in Wis. its that using the PS Unions as a vanguard is a bad mistake. Not much sympathy or empathy exists for these folks anymore.
“I am saying the USA gave them a less than mediocre education”
Amen. Your comment is an understatement.
“Things have gotten much worse, and it’s all to the good for the oligarchy.”
I’m a third generation teacher. Most of my friends are teachers. In my considered opinion that it indeed has gotten worse. In particular, No Child Left Behind is the single worse thing to happen to education in my lifetime. It may even be worse than how elementary schools used to be modeled after factories.
If you aren’t familiar with him, you might like to read the work of John Holt