Any chance Katherine Harris counted the votes?

“Fear apparently won out over anger tonight.”; you nailed it.

Damn, first Ireland, then Wisconsin (or was it the other way around?) now Greece. Iceland is looking better and better.

“Via Twitter, Pasok has apparently consented to join New Democracy in a coalition government.” can’t find that tweet David; link?

More austerity coming our way, a global race to the bottom.
All roads lead to Bangladesh.
Sucks to be a person who works for a living.

Looks like Greece voted to officially be Germany’s bitch.

Pasok seems to have learned the lesson of Britians Lib. Dem. party.
Join up and get rolled. You get as much blaim as the senior partner and no power whatso ever.

Greece hasn’t had enough pain yet. They’d rather live with the battered wife’s syndrome if only they give up more, things will eventually get better. Why live with reality when you can have you delusions which give you comfort.

I agree, give them some more time. They will come around. We all will. In the end, we all will, but for now, we listen to the MOTU that austerity is the cure for what troubles our economies.

Maybe someday, we will realize that “free trade” in the end, is only good for multinational corporations and not the people. Maybe some day, we can actually have governments that look out for the good of the people, not foreign interests.

My prediction: vote doesn’t matter. Greece out of Euro by end of the summer.

I find Greek multiparty disfunction by the Syriza refusal to ‘form a government’, similar to our Tea Party’s intransigence. Its refusing to function within the Republican Party hierarchy to form a compromising functional government has the US similarly screwed.

I have little faith in the theory that things have to get worse before people respond. Look around the world, things get bad and stay that way.

So Pasok sort of = blue dog DINOs?

I admire the tea party for pushing their primitive agenda .The problem is we progressives don’t even have any vision to form an agenda .and aren’t tough enough to push for it anyways .Fuck gridlock ,as if we would flourish if only the ‘rational’ corporate-owned center were unfettered .

I don’t think it was a refusal on Syriza’s part so much as a pragmatic recognition that they don’t have the votes to do it. Due to Greece’s (bizarre) “first past the post” bonus of 50 seats, a Syriza-led coalition without New Democracy would have had to include basically every other party in parliament, including the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn. Obviously that isn’t going to happen. So Tsipras’s announcement that he wouldn’t try to form a coalition was an acknowledge of the fact that, with these numbers, he just can’t.

Last I heard, Pasok will form a coalition with ND only if Syriza will be part of the coalition. Cut’n'paste from a comment by YesMaybe over at naked democracy:

Greek pollster, Marika Lambrou, said this:
[...]

New Democracy will receive 29.53% of the vote, equivalent to 128 seats.
Syriza will receive 27.12% – 72 seats.
Pasok will receive 12.2% – 23 seats.
Independent Greeks will receive 7.56% – 20 seats.
Golden Dawn will receive 6.95% – 18 seats.
Democratic Left will receive 6.23% – 17 seats.
Greek Communist Party will receive 4.47% – 12 seats.”

ND-PASOK at 151? In other words, another squeaker and very possible they’ll fall short of a majority again. Nevermind that Venizelos today again said he wouldn’t join a government without Syriza.

My thoughts exactly. This loss is very discouraging.

Shorter New Democracy slogan:

“We suck less!”

Which is new and innovative and can really solve problems. No wonder that Obama endorses them.

I don’t think you can compare Greek political parties to any of our major paarties aand their sects. Entirely different culture and circumstance, I still haven’t see what was supposed to be a second announcement by the head of Pasok.

Yeah, but things got shitty after 8 years of bush and the GOP having locks on the board, and americans elected the candidate who, more than anyone else, ran on promises to change things…AND we gave him the tools to do it.

Nada.

I think we’re going to do a mulligan on that crap-can-lead-to-change thingy, but this time let’s find someone who means it.

Oh; it would be nice to vote our progressive jellyfish out, so that we can get to the rest of it, while sending the message that if you run and win big as a progressive, and then turn out to be just another corporate shit, you will be fired at the earliest opportunity.

If I were Syriza, I’d be pumped about today’s results. They seem to be the only party actually interested in fixing Greece for the Greek people, and were rewarded by seeing their results climb almost 10% in the polls since the last election.

If they offer strong, capable opposition leadership, they’ll be able to increase their numbers going forward — and whether or not a government is formed now, there will be elections soon enough (no coalition formed now will last beyond a year, IMO).

The Greeks will soon come to realize that the panic-party that only offers fear is full of it. The battle is not over whether or not Greece should stay in the EU and Eurozone. The battle is over whether or not the terms should be negotiated in a way that makes it as fair as possible for the Greek people.

Europe only wants the powers that be in Greece to stay in power because those powers that be will play ball with them, doing whatever they ask; Syriza will give as much as it gets, demanding fair terms in return for continuing in the Euro. That’s what governments *should* be doing — fighting for their people.

I’ve been very, very impressed by Syzira’s actions and efforts in face of this international propaganda effort against them. They’ve lost these two battles in ways that suggest they’re going to win the war.

Even worse. The blue dogs would sell America to American companies. PASOK and New Democracy have been selling Greece to Germany.

I can’t imagine Greece would have been allowed to leave the Euro anyway.

That’s a bizarre conclusion. A hypothetical: would you ask progressives in Congress to vote for Boehner as Speaker because more Republicans win in 2012? Absolutely not.

Well, at least now Syriza won’t be made the scapegoat.

They voted to continue the Depression? They’re as dumb as the Tea Party.

DDay… does the 300 member government still need to vote on any bailout details?

A government may be formed, but they may still need to find 151 votes to make stuff happen. And I saw that the coalition has only 161 (one six one) votes.

I could very easily see a dozen or so individuals say “eff the bailout, I’m voting against it.”

And I don’t know how this representation gets allocated. You could easily have a dozen or so MPs who come from geographic areas that are anti-bailout. And if that happens, those people may either be influenced by their friends and family to oppose a bailout-austerity measure… or some may even fear for their lives (along with their family’s safety) due to violence in their neighborhoods.

My view is that this election, and pending coalition gov’t, are nowhere near any sort of conclusion that there will be no Grexit.

Weep friends, weep for the Greeks.
Austerity will continue.
More unemployment, 50% for the youth, and it will get much much worse.
If they had left the Euro, they would have suffered but recuperated. Iceland.
But now the descent continues unabated.
The money will go straight to the 1% in Europe, and the Greeks will be left with nothing more than living on the streets, and trying not to starve, all the while paying back that money that went to the 1% instead of them.
Now we wait. Falling, falling, falling, … remember it’s not the fall that kills you, it’s the landing.
The “landing” in Greece will be a spark. A spark that when lit, will not go out until it consumes all of Greece.
So weep for the Greeks. Weep for their children mostly. For they will go through and see what true depravity and destruction is. And as children, they will learn this is how the world works. Take what you can, … steal, cheat, lie, … kill, maim, … do whatever it takes to survive one more day, … and this is how you kill humanity in a person. Those children just got pawned by the 1%, and their parents signed them up.

Does anyone even know how insanely delusional and non-realistic this is? They’re doubling/tripling/… on failed ideas that have not worked and can not worked … they were never designed to work, only to steal what’s left of the Greeks.
And they actually voted for it? I guess we’re all Americans now.

Mostly true. but they have brought it on themselves in many ways. So far as I know, no one told them to vote this way. And no one says they have to retire at age 55 and if no one there pays taxes? The people up north are just asking how much more of our money do they want?

Sooner or later, right now later, the scourge in Greece will come tumbling down I suspect.

I see your point. However, since in this case it would be the center left reps who would logically be most likely to go rogue, I doubt it would happen. Center left types are pansies.

Just shows to go you. People repeatedly vote against themselves mostly out of ignorance. Can’t beat that.

I would agree with that. It only means there are more crises to come.

Time to re-watch Costa-Garvras ‘Z’, and maybe listen to Zappa’s “It Can’t Happen Here”.

The drachma won’t work once Greece’s hard assets have been plundered and resources privatized .They voted to be colonized by banking elites and then have the nerve to demand all the parties work together .What the fuck are they are supposed to work for except Merkel’s dictates ?

center left = I’m wealthy, but I don’t really hate people.

I don’t buy it for one second that the Grexit has been avoided. Delayed? Yes. But not avoided.

With no clear winner of a majority (or even 1/3) of the vote… the activists will see legitimacy in continuing the protests, including the violence.

Things will continue to worsen in Greece and no one will find 150 votes… unless it includes something like BOTH the outright purchase of the vote (par for the course with the motu) AND immediate “retirement” of the MPs, including an all-expenses-paid “permanent vacation” to the Caribbean or South Pacific… someplace far away.

Ok, that’s a bit of a stretch. But I just don’t see how a Grexit is avoided… UNLESS Merkel can drag this out past her election in the fall of 2013. And that’s a LONG way away.

Or maybe Merkel agrees to end austerity and likely end her reelection bid… in exchange for a really, REALLY big MOTU offer? But even with that, the reality of that working becomes less and less and time passes and the MOTU would have to offer many more enticing jobs to a whole slew of German MPs.

Hey blue ,if we didn’t have a a reserve currency would you feel the same if China demanded we means-test all pensions and entitlements ,and then block-granted the consequent welfare programs ? They have already spoken of old people who aren’t impoverished stealing from future generations ,and note that their people aren’t pampered with such largesse . If taking 60% at 54 is the point ,what’s the point at which taking reduced outlays for early retirement no longer offends you ?

Final result is
seats -% – party
129- 29.6 – New Democratic
71 – 26.9- Syriza (Pasok wants the “far”left Syriza in gov)
33 – 12.3 – Pasok
20 – 7.5 – Independent Greeks (right-wing anti-austerity political party)
18 – 6.9 – Golden Dawn (far right anti-immigrant)
17 – 6.3 – Democratic Left -Dimar (Pasok wants them in gov)
12 – 4.5- KKE (communist)

57 percent of Greeks have voted against the austerity plan of the two once-dominant parties

Indeed anti-austerity is higher than 57% of the vote – if you think New Democrats promised a stop for a while on austerity it is hard to find supporters of German austerity as currently laid out.

“Mostly true. but they have brought it on themselves in many ways. So far as I know, no one told them to vote this way. The people up north are just asking how much more of our money do they want?”

No one told them to vote this way, yes. Fear motivated them. Something we should be accustomed to by now. Vote O, he’s not as big as a 1% Ahole as Romney Ahole. We still get skrewed by an Ahole either way.

“And no one says they have to retire at age 55 and if no one there pays taxes?”

Many other comments above have clarified this propaganda about retiring early. I find it telling that you push this tripe. But hey, knock yourself out. (Ya, that’s vitriol, and I can’t express in written words the level of vitriol I feel at hearing you said that.)
No one pays taxes? Holy shite, no wonder they’re in so much trouble. /s

“The people up north are just asking how much more of our money do they want?”

I assume you’re referring to Germany. It’s not “the people up north” as you say. It’s the 1%ers in all the countries.

What’s 10,000 1%/1% pawns at the bottom of the sea? Not nearly enough. Not nearly fucking enough.
(FDL disclaimer, violence is bad, be civil, … right up to the point we watch our children starve on the streets, … just remember, be civil, always be civil. There is Never an excuse for violence. NEVER.)

Couldn’t have said it better.
The 1% and their pawns are literally delusional – fantasy-based thinking.
Only they could say something like this with a straight face: “Join us as we finish selling Greece and all Greeks, and all Greek children to come to the 1%, … oh ya, let’s celebrate.”

Greek retirement age is 65 – not 55. Like every country they allow early retirement only with massive reduction in size of benefit.

Greek taxes paid equals current Greek budget costs except for principal and interest on debt – making at least one solution clear.

But Germany has the ECB screwing the Greek companies – shutting down manufacturing and indeed shutting down business via screwing with the Greek banks and credit lines and inter-bank loans.

Should be an interesting quarter-final European Championship soccer match between Greece and Germany – Germany is the heavy favorite but there may be blood left on the field.

Syriza needs to find ways of holding it together while not being in government, then.

Check it out. most greeks retire at 55.

Sorry to upset your world view. But they bring it on themselves.

Go read “Austerity Kills” at Ma href=”http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/06/austerity-kills-how-the-eurocrisis-is-being-used-to-break-the-social-contract.html”>at Naked Capitalism.

And consider that Robamney, our Corporatis pod person, has this kind of thing in mind for the USA. And what do we have to stand in opposition to our Corporatist Party with its R wing and D wing?

Hey bluedot. The mainstream media is constantly trumpeting how the Greeks have brought this on themselves through their “laziness,” tax aversion, etc… so I can understand how, if you only get your news from the MSM, you might think that this is true. In reality, as I posted over on another thread, the average Greek worker retires at the age of 61.7, which in fact is later than the average German (61.3). Meanwhile the average Greek works 2,109 hours per year, while the average German only works 1,419. (These figures are from the OECD, which is reliable, and you can find them here and here.) Whatever is going on in Greece, “laziness” or poor work ethics or early retirement is not the explanation.

But really, living here in America, we should know that, shouldn’t we? Since 1979 workers’ productivity has increased by 80% in this country and yet average working wages have increased by only 10%; for white male workers there has actually been a relative decline. If working hard and working a lot and working until you’re 70 were a path to economic success, then all of us should be sitting on a pile of lucre.

*Checks for pile of lucre.* Whoops! Where did it go?!

As we all know, it didn’t go to the workers; it went to the already wealthy. (Fun fact: if workers’ wages had kept pace with the pay rates of their CEOs, then the average worker would now be making $200,000 a year!) So yeah, the idea that hard work brings you more money is pretty obviously a myth.

And actually, there are two (related) aspects to debunking the myth of “productivity=prosperity.” One, just mentioned, has to do with the way in which the *value* produced by increasing productivity is distributed. I mean, it doesn’t help workers to double their productivity if the surplus only goes into the pockets of the CEO. There’s no automatic correlation between increasing wealth and equitable distribution.

The other aspect, which is a bit more complicated, is that there is *also* no direct correlation between increasing productivity and increasing profits. In fact, many people (such as Marx) have asserted the opposite: that is, that increasing productivity causes the rate of profit to diminish. This might seem counterintuitive: if I produce, say, two pairs of shoes in the time it used to take me to produce one, why wouldn’t my rate of profit double? The really hastily sketched answer is that competition will drive my prices down to the absolute bare minimum, so that increasing productivity will actually lead to both an absolute and relative decline in the price of shoes. (Think about it: in this age of Nike sweatshops, a pair of sneakers certainly costs *less* than back when you had to buy them from the cobbler!)

The other problem with increasing productivity is that it can lead to increasing unemployment. If my workers start producing shoes twice as fast, I *could* double the number of shoes I produce with the same number of workers… but I could also just lay off half my workers. In other words, increasing productivity has a tendency to *displace* workers, and this can only be offset if an equal number of new jobs are created to make up for the ones rendered redundant. A significant amount of work has gone into showing that this is not the case, i.e. that job creation does not keep pace and a portion of the working class is constantly thrown into unemployment.

To give one example: for all the talk of the decline of manufacturing in America, manufacturing output has actually increased over the past thirty years; the problem is that it has done so through increased productivity and thus only employs a small fraction of the workers that it did at its height. (The decline in industry jobs was partially made up for by an increase in the service sector, but for various reasons this is not a viable long-term strategy; among other things, you can’t really support a family on a Starbucks wage.)

In conclusion, this somewhat lengthy segue was designed to explain that, contrary to popular myth, “hard work” simply does *not* (or not necessarily) lead to prosperity. That’s a frightening realization; once you’ve pierced the myth, the whole narrative of prosperity and poverty begins to fall apart. And that applies as much to Greece as to the state of America.

Great response. The “retiring at 55″ meme is sickeningly stupid.

Not true – because the welfare is so low, with massive unemployment folks are accepting the massive reduction in pension that occurs when you retire early (living on $300 a month is better than starving)

Your statement is like saying that Americans retire at 62 – sure you can – but a max wage every year over last 35 years person’s benefit of $2,000 a month is reduced at 62 by 25% – soon to be a 30% reduction under the Reagan law (not living high on hog now that private defined pensions are dying and 401k savings have been cut in half from the financial crisis and never were more than a few 10′s of thousands – and god forbid you tried to get some cash out of your home and are now underwater and losing your home) – the same age US wife reduction is now 30% and scheduled to be 35% soon under the Reagan law. Since the average person is not a max wage person and gets about $1000 per month, we get quickly into numbers for those that retire early that similar to the low income Greeks that are protesting.

The current Greek age at claiming a check numbers after 4 years of recession turning into a depression are that in Greece you can early retire at 55, normal retire at 65, and that 65% still working/pension not claimed at age 59, 18% still working/pension not claimed at 64, and 4% still working/pension not claimed at 69 per the study by the OECD. The same study showed the Greeks the second hardest working population in the world – only behind the South Koreans. The average German works 30% less than the average Greek. Also claiming a pension does not mean you have stopped working

The pension formula for most people (in the future) is an average annual accrual rate (at which entitlement to future pension benefits accumulate) limited to 1.2 percent of earnings (40 years gets you 48% of salary – 40 years is the minimum period to get a full pension at 65). A minimum early retirement age of 60 is being phased in. The employer’s contribution is 28% of the salary, the employee’s contribution is 16%, for the sum of pension, unemployment and all health care insurance. Earnings greater than about 300% of average earnings is not counted for benefit calculation.

However you are correct as to prior pension levels – they were similar to our police/fire pensions in the US and not sustainable and that system ended in 2009.

Thanks for posting that – its late and I’m tired – so I was glad to see you covered that.

Sadly facts don’t stop some folks.

Brilliantly said, Bennett.

Like others above, I can’t find any indication that PASOK has agreed (or even hinted that they’ll agree) to join an ND coalition. Venizelos said he wouldn’t do it without Syriza on board, and AFAIK, he hasn’t gone back on that. I know the “markets” would love for that to happen, and that has been reported, but I don’t see any indication that Venizelos has changed his mind. (And Syriza will NOT join a Samaras/ND-led government; Tsirpas was very clear about that.)

ND can’t make the numbers work without PASOK; they would need both the Independent Greeks and Golden Dawn to reach 150 in that case. Giving ministries to Golden Dawn would be a PR nightmare, and probably cost them a significant chunk of their base. And IG is anti- the German plan (the “second note”), so I can’t see their joining unless they got major concessions. It looks as though ND needs PASOK, or they’re out of luck.

My best guess is that Venizelos is thinking about holding fast, knowing that if ND can’t form a coalition, then the option goes to Syriza, which has almost no chance to get to 150. (Unless ND would pledge to support them in a “unity” coalition, but they wouldn’t do that unless Tsirpas agreed to the ECB plan, which his whole campaign has been against.) So Syriza would fail to form a government…

…and the next in line would be PASOK. I think that Venizelos is thinking that while ND would never accept Tsirpas as PM, and Syriza wouldn’t join an ND coalition, he can present himself as a compromise candidate, acceptable to both of the major parties. (Yes, sorry, PASOK; after 38 years of joint rule, you’re also-rans now. Democrats, are you watching?) That might work (and perhaps his and his party’s egos would accept no less) but I think it’s more likely that either ND or Syriza would balk at allowing the party that got a distant 12.3% of the vote to run things, and we’d be facing a third round of elections.

I think this is a tactical error on the part of PASOK; I think they’d do much better to drive a *hard* bargain for their support of the ND coalition and come aboard, hopefully bringing Dimar along with them. Then, if (okay, when) the policies fail, they can blame ND, and Dimar would be the first to leave the coalition, so PASOK wouldn’t be accused of bringing down the government.

(Of course, I’m quite opposed to the idea of supporting the “bailout”, so I hope that Venizelos doesn’t choose this option; it just seems to make the most sense to me.)

But even if Samaras can form a government, I don’t see it lasting long; the German plan will only cause more hardship and the next elections will come within a year. And whether those elections happen in six weeks (if nobody can form a government) or six months, I think things look very good for Syriza, which has gone from 4.6% to 17% (last election) to 27%. They might win 100 seats and (with the 50 seat bonus) an outright majority next time.

So I definitely think there’s more to come with the rise of the left in Greece; the only question is when. Keep fighting!

Oh, I see papau is here, who actually knows this stuff. (Whereas six weeks ago, I didn’t even know the names of the parties.) How ridiculous are my wild guesses above? Just wondering.

Thank you.
I just can’t handle the nonsense BS propaganda without having an aneurysm.
And just wonderfully said, even I can easily understand.
Thank you. My potential aneurysm thanks you.

Thank you Bennett and Papau .Anyone who doesn’t get it after your enlightened comments is someone with a psychological problem whose beliefs are so entangled with identity that conflicting views are threatening .

Thanks everyone for your kind comments! As a long-time lurker, it’s exhilarating and a little nerve-wracking to dive into the fray…

@defogger: A lot of people are deeply invested in the status quo, and psychologically I understand that: if you start questioning the dominant narrative the whole floor falls out from under your feet. It’s difficult to get people to examine their preconceptions. And yet I also maintain a (perhaps naïvely) optimistic faith in people’s capacity to think critically. Dialogue and development are the necessary preconditions for social and political change; the first battle is *precisely* a battle over belief(s).