For most of us the war (neither Iraq not Afghanistan) is certainly not worth it. In Iraq we disrupted a society that was functioning: the people were establishing a solid middle class, the women were moving quickly out of the shadows, and the infrastructure was fairly solid and getting better. In Afghanistan, as bad as the taliban were, they seemed to be progressing in some ways: official corruption was not overwhelming and the poppy growth was essentially exterminated. Our intervention in both countries were has thrown them into chaos. We have killed and are killing the women and children there which is considered terrible when it happens here.

We have needlessly lost many young people to death and drug and alcohol addiction. The constant killing there has spilled over to here. The money thrown into the useless wars has allowed the elite to set up a false problem of a deficit that must be solved by economically and educationally destroying the middle class. All based on lies, not misunderstandings.

The only ones happy with the wars are the mic titans and their stooges in the wh, the scotus, and the congress.

Thanks for starting this thread and Merry Christmas in spite of everything.

“Since 2010, suicide has been the second leading cause of death among U.S service members, exceeded only by war injury.”

Think they mean active “members”; the death toll overall, including vets, is substantially greater than the number of KIA’s.

Yeah, merry christmas.

I sincerely honor the motivations and intentions of those who are recruited to serve in the military. But I do not honor an institution that is so obviously dishonorable.

If we did not praise and celebrate the young men and women as though they are above most mortals in virtue and worth perhaps the evil predators who exploit them would find it more difficult to enlist them as willing fodder.
http://gamountains.net/su.mp3

U.S. Army researchers have suggested that deployment to these conflicts increases a soldier’s risk of suicide

That’s a cover-up. These “researchers” are delivering the intuitively correct line that everyone expects to hear. The Army is withdrawing from Afghanistan — that’s the answer, they imply. Move along.

That’s the best we are allowed because there is nothing definitive from official sources. The Army Suicide Prevention Task Force hasn’t published anything in two years. But we do have the numbers. And actually, from the information we’re given, the truth is that it’s military service itself, not combat, that is the leading cause of suicide.

from SecDef Panetta:

“More than half of those who have committed suicide in the military have no history of deployment,” the secretary pointed out. ”So we’re dealing with broader societal issues. Substance abuse, financial distress and relationship problems — the risk factors for suicide — also reflect problems … that will endure beyond war.”

from PBS:

Most soldiers who take their own lives today have no history of deployment. They’ve never seen combat, never been to war. Nobody really knows why.

And although the military’s suicide problem flared during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, so far it doesn’t seem to be ending with them.

About 53 percent of those who died by suicide in the military in 2011, the most recent year for which data is available, had no history of deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan, according (pdf) to the Defense Department. And nearly 85 percent of military members who took their lives had no direct combat history, meaning they may have been deployed but not seen action.

from Rollcall:

For 2012, the Pentagon has reported a record number — 320 suicides, or nearly one a day. That’s double the number of suicides in 2001, before more than a decade of war began.

The pressures of combat on soldiers has undoubtedly contributed to the problem. However, military statistics reveal that most of the service members who killed themselves in recent years never deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan. And of those who went to war, most of those who took their own lives never saw combat.

The figure of 320 military suicides only includes those on active duty and certain kinds of reservists. If other reservists and veterans were included, suicides would number 18 per day, according to Rep. Rush D. Holt, D-N.J.

Yes. When we able to attend a public function and there is a request for all teachers and social workers (not veterans) to rise and be honored, we will have arrived at a better society. I say that as a twenty-year veteran.

I respect you for that. I also have empathy when I, as a psychiatrist, read this. Though not involved,I still feel some of its evil stalking me.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/12/17/121217fa_fact_khatchadourian

You know they are still doing things like this.

Lets cut to the chase here…

” the essential question is – is (any) war worth it?”

No.

Does anyone think the Afghanistan war is worth this?

Obviously, yes.

Many of the young people who enlist are from somewhat disadvantaged backgrounds, where the military is a means of escape, a demonstration of their independence, and a way to be rewarded with benefits once they return to civilian life. They may have a heightened need to be respected, which society superficially confers upon service members. Undoubtedly many of them carry emotional baggage with them, and perhaps the discipline to conform and take orders unquestioningly conflicts with their need to be respected as individuals. Whatever the reasons, it’s clear the military hasn’t done enough to deal with this horrendous problem.

Beyond that, our society really needs to do some soul searching to figure out why we are so violent, both within our boundaries and outwardly toward the rest of the world. The mental health issue that has come to the fore with the recent school massacre should be a broad-based concern about the mental health of those who run this country and all those who support them.

Beyond that, our society really needs to do some soul searching to figure out why we are so violent, both within our boundaries and outwardly toward the rest of the world.

Look to who we call heroes. What human doesn’t want to be a hero, especially feral young men.

Does anyone think the Afghanistan war is worth this?
HELL NO!!!!

It’s a form of barbarism to use a cost-benefit analysis to evaluate a war crime such as the the American-led invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. This invasion was indeed a war crime. So too the occupation. There is no benefit equal to the collective suffering imposed on that country, its peoples, the country and peoples of Pakistan and the countries and peoples of the invading-occupying forces. The loss of life by itself generates an infinity of human suffering. No monetary value can be justly assigned to that.

American ‘citizens’ ought to consider the nature and moral significance of what their ‘leaders’ do in their name.

Drug and alcohol abuse

National Institute of Drug Abuse

In fact, prescription drug abuse doubled among U.S. military personnel from 2002 to 2005 and almost tripled between 2005 and 2008.

Alcohol abuse is the most prevalent problem and one which poses a significant health risk. A study of Army soldiers screened 3 to 4 months after returning from deployment to Iraq showed that 27 percent met criteria for alcohol abuse and were at increased risk for related harmful behaviors (e.g., drinking and driving, using illicit drugs).

LA Times

A fog of drugs and war
In a small but growing number of cases across the nation, lawyers are blaming the U.S. military’s heavy use of psychotropic drugs for their clients’ aberrant behavior and related health problems. Such defenses have rarely gained traction in military or civilian courtrooms, but Burke’s case provides the first important indication that military psychiatrists and court-martial judges are not blind to what can happen when troops go to work medicated.

After two long-running wars with escalating levels of combat stress, more than 110,000 active-duty Army troops last year were taking prescribed antidepressants, narcotics, sedatives, antipsychotics and anti-anxiety drugs, according to figures recently disclosed to The Times by the U.S. Army surgeon general. Nearly 8% of the active-duty Army is now on sedatives and more than 6% is on antidepressants — an eightfold increase since 2005.

“We have never medicated our troops to the extent we are doing now…. And I don’t believe the current increase in suicides and homicides in the military is a coincidence,” said Bart Billings, a former military psychologist who hosts an annual conference on combat stress.

I was a personnel sergeant, and while stationed in Vietnam I was involved in casualty reporting. Generally there weren’t any; I was assigned to a signal battalion in Pleiku province and after 3d Infantry Division relocated to Nha Trang our area was pretty quiet except for some rocket attacks from January to about April 1970. We had one guy killed by enemy action, shrapnel from a 122mm rocket penetrated the back of his flak jacket. We had two suicides, and I’ve been thinking about them because of the hysteria over Banghazi. One of them I don’t remember anything about. The other I recall because the kid switched his M-16 to full auto before he shot himself and a stray round hit his room-mate (we were in a really comfortable base but nothing like what they have now). Within half an hour after the initial report was submitted we started getting questions from higher and higher in the chain of command. It turned out not many people knew the kid very well, he was about half way through his 12 month tour, and the people who did know him were out on their jobs throughout the province, so it took about a day before we could talk to them all. Just like with the Benghazi reporting, we weren’t able to answer all the questions immediately, and I can tell you we were under trememdous pressure to try. Eventually, IIRC we even had a Congressional inquiry about it, and those require IMMEDIATE response from the battalion commander. We never did come up with any satisfactory answer as to why.

Sorry if I’m going off-topic. We had suicide problems back then, but nowhere near what they have now. I was interested by the datum that most of the suicides have never deployed. I wonder what that means. I don’t intend to disrespect Cdr. Price, but I wonder if his team has been involved in night raids or prisoner interrogation. I’m an agnostic, but I pray on a daily basis to give thanks for the good things in my life — after all, I don’t really know whether or not there’s a god who cares, but it doesn’t cost me anything, it can’t hurt, and it seems to make my life better. I think I’ll include a prayer for him tonight.

from the Pentagon:
Cdr. Job W. Price, 42, of Pottstown, Pa., died Dec. 22 of a non-combat related injury while supporting stability operations in Uruzgan Province,

“Stability operations” — that’s a good one. War is Peace.

Stability Operations: Kill bad guys who cause instability.