If Wyden wants to be more than an empty suit, he needs to put a hold on Brennan’s nomination. Otherwise, he’s no better than the Congressional Progressive Doormat Caucus.

So this guy is, if I understand correctly, in up to his neck with rendition, torture and assassination. You are making him the state’s chief murderer/torturer/abductor. He has complete impunity to do what he wants to anyone “deemed a threat” by a high level official.

You aren’t quite at the point of Pinochet’s Chile, but the slide is gathering pace. Trouble is, your countrymen are mostly cheering for these policies.

I’d get out while you can if it’s possible for you. This will get much more ugly.

Imagine “drone commander TBogg” when he decides “better to go along with the program and keep what I’ve got”. Imagine thousands of other drone commander TBoggs like him all over the country. The mentality is right and it’s on public display here all the time. There are enough of them to enable full-blown fascism when the time comes.

Every American has the right to know when their government believes that it is allowed to kill them.

Doesn’t the white paper provide the answer?

The answer to what question?

I always thought the paper that provided the answer on matters of due process was called the Constitution of the United States.

And the one that governed torture was the UN Convention Against Torture that Reagan signed.

If those pieces of paper don’t provide the answers, then the Rule of Law means nothing.

It’s not about Brennan. It’s about Obama. It’s about Democrats who go berserk when Bush tortures people but don’t say a mumbling word when Obama claims the right to kill citizens without a soupcon of due process – and vice versa.

Well, not to worry. We’re being told that, until 2008, Brennan opposed torture privately. And, since his reticence about his opposition to torture cost him, he’s been opposing it more vocally.

Not sure how vocal he’s been about extraordinary rendition or Bagram, but still. We do have another nominee who took one route until it cost him something personally, then saw the light after it cost him something personally.

So, we can be totally confident of his principles and ethics.

Acting to hold Hagel’s nomination is more possible than putting a hold on Brennan’s. Brennan has more GOP support. Will Wyden try to use this gambit: push for more information in the hearing for Brennan and have a filibuster fight over the Hagel nomination demanding more information about the DoD part of the drone program. Especially with regards to US Northern Command.

I think Wyden means specifically. One might like a warrant or even a telegram or heck an email saying that your country the US has decided to kill you John Q. Public because of this imminent danger. You have 2 hours for an administrative appeal. You know, due process.

Not quite. If it were only about Obama, I’d feel ever so much better.

It’s about all the DLC, Third Way, New Democrats, No Labels, etc. types. Sadly, those types took over the Democratic Party.

After Bill Clinton’s Presidential victory, either you were already one of them, like Gore, Lieberman Emanuel, Warner, Robb, et al, or you converted, as did Kerry, Schumer, etc.

And they all have done everything they can, within reason, to get rid of the remaining liberals.

If it were only Obama, I would just grit my teeth for four years. Inasmuch as our only two major political parties are now corporatist, along with all the think tanks, professors, etc., though, the problem is so much bigger than Obama.

On the bright side, the Democratic Party went so far right that the right had to become 95% certifiably looney to distinguish themselves from the Democrats. And, the country made clear in 2012 how much it doesn’t like that. So, now, the Democrats are “lefter” than they were in Obama’s first term. And the Republicans are at least pretending to be shifting left.

So, maybe the pendulum will swing back where it belongs. Meanwhile, though, I am going Green. And I don’t mean Solyndra style, either.

The Bill of Rights defines due process in some detail. And it involves a grand jury, right to counsel, right to confront witnesses against you, etc. Not a two-hour notice. And not a decision by someone in the CIA that it’s your time to die.

No, it doesn’t. It is a summary of one or more larger documents. One important thing to know for instance if the President believes he can kill citizens under Article II (rather than the AUMF), which the memo dances around and isn’t explicit on. If Obama is secretly claiming he’s got assassination power under Article II, then this would be saying not even Congress could stop him killing citizens short of rewriting the Constitution rather than him being able to be stopped by ending/changing the AUMF.

Also there’s specific Constitutionally-defined ways to deal with citizens alleged to be waging war against the US or aiding our enemies – and it’s not summarily executing citizens based upon mere White House allegations without any trial in court.

Forgot the snark tag, sorry.

Obama has already re-written the Constitution, as did Bush and, to a lesser extent (presumbably), Clinton.

I knew you were being sarcastic.

Just wanted to make sure the requirements and the source of the requiremets were out there.

P.S. I rarely use the snark tag myself. I just figure it’s obvious. Not always the case, though.

Our whole legal system is based on the principle that a mere allegation is insufficient.

BTW, individuals commit crimes. Nations wage wars.

Bush and Obama have obscured the difference.

UGH.

I guess this is one of those days, where, selfishly, I’m glad I’m getting up there in years. This is emphatically: NOT. GOOD.

Albeit, equally emphatically: Not. Unexpceted.

Well I tore up my “Democratic” Party membership some time ago and have been voting so-called “Third” Party on & off for decades, plus also not voitng for any candidates listed sometimes. FWIW: which ain’t much.

Huge sigh! I can just hear my Obot pals blissfully & joyously praising Obo to the skies for this “bold” appointment. I don’t get it.

Pinochet’s Chile? Yeah, getting ever closer. It’s what the PTB have wanted for *decades.* Chile was, ya see, a dress rehersal.

The Constitution got rewritten in the Truman administration. We are just now catching on.

While this may not fit within an exception, there are exceptions.

I have never been in the situation, but I assume the criminal who lifts a gun against a police officer realizes he’s not going to get a 2 hour head start before bad things begin to happen.

My point above was that if persons needed the right to know that plotting to kill Americans would get them deaded. Now they know.

Indeed, thank you!!

Why are those points so difficult for some to understand?

No white paper trumps the Constitution..period..nor should it!

With an exclamation mark on 11-22-’63 , no.

Who’s our Daddy or PopPop or Poppy or whoever you call him now.

And NO act can amend the Constitution as the AUMF purports to do . Without a Constitutionally mandated Declaration of War we are NOT at war at this time, neither were we in the Vietnam invasion.

I wonder if this is true. The contemporary security state was established under George W. Bush, not Bill Clinton or his DLC colleagues when Clinton was president. While there is great continuity between the W. and Obama administrations with respect to excessive national security and suppression of civil rights and liberties (and in fact Obama now has gone way beyond W. on these matters), there does not appear to be the same continuity between Bill Clinton’s presidential administration and that of either Bush or Obama.

Historically, a major break occurred with the installation of W. in 2000 and 9/11. As you know, there is a theory of 36-year cycles in American history. According to this theory, a 36-year cycle began in 1968 with Nixon’s election and was scheduled to end in 2004. 2004 may indeed, have marked the end of a cycle, when the voters elected W. over Kerry and thereby confirmed their acceptance of the new national security order. From this perspective, Hillary Clinton’s candidacy may really have been a rear-guard attempt by some forces in the American political establishment to restore the 1968-2000 political gestalt, which involved a basically pro-corporate agency but much greater levels of personal freedom.

I’ve recommending getting out for ten years. I remember exactly the date in early 2003 when I realized the United States government could ‘disappear’ me without a trace. I leave the house to go to the conveience store and am never heard from again. It was possible by that date, and is now fully in the open. Except that now, if you want to leave and take up a new citizenship, you have yo pay an exit tav. Forget about leaving if you have a student debt.

Please, please, FDL, do what you so excellently were doing when I first knew you – live blog this hearing, even if it is only from the perspective of internet feed. I will be going to C-span to find it, as I did for the Clinton-Benghazi one, but I would so much appreciate an ongoing discussion here of this important matter.

I would take one issue DWS, with your first and repeated statement that this is our last chance to discuss this issue – oh no, far too important for that. We shall be on it like terriers, the Boston kind that are so gentle they don’t have much of a bark, but the grip of a bulldog!

I meant to write “pro-corporate agenda” not “pro-corporate agency”.

This is called fascism… I recall warning that eventually for political reasons this all would be hung around Obama’s neck. It is the consequence of looking forward and allowing “fascist creep” to take effect. Kennedy couldn’t not appear soft on communism. Obama cannot appear soft on terrorists. In both cases claim to America’s protection was the paramount concern.

From yellow cake and the Wilsons to Scooter Libby to retroactive telecom immunity, rendition and torture, Guantanamo and now drone strike in the absence of due process or checks and balances? The appearance of impropriety is ripe. As ripe as is the propensity for abuse of power, given human history.

One thing of concern, drone’s mission control operating out of Saudi Arabia? In America we cleansed the land of native Indians with best war technology of the day, making way for the new transportation of the day, railways. I wonder whose business model we are protecting and who we are cleansing now?

Yup…. Hey the king of England designated Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and those of their ilk as terrorists. If caught they would have been hung. Go figure….

Corporate fascism…

Knut, on this very issue of student debt, which is slave peonage, coupled with joblessness – I do envision a student protest organization that could have muscle and bones this coming spring to do a march on Washington that would make Martin Luther King proud. Last night I read the term ‘internal emigration’ – we are not physically leaving this country! Young people are our life blood; these are our future leaders – they need to make their mark in this manner by organizing for their own future, not against banks and politicians as was the impetus for OWS but the same people setting goals of a free education, which is their and future generations’ right, a healthy environment, and rebuilding America. These debts must be forgiven, and the devil take the financial structures – they should topple!

Such a march will produce candidates we can vote for in the coming elections, in numbers that must be acknowledged – let’s see Kent State writ large, let the world see it! (Not in violence but in brave idealism.) The famous march wasn’t just MLK at the podium – it was people as far back as the eye could see.

This would be a good time to begin organizing for this. Maybe it can’t happen this spring; okay, next year! We have all the parts of such a positive movement. It just has to happen! And when it does, I promise I will gladly send my sons out with bus fare to Washington, DC, and if I can, I will go along for the ride. Emigrate? Yes! Leave? NO!

x2

Knut

Provided you can get reasonably secure residence elsewhere, the exit tax would be only enforceable if you insisted on going back to the gulag from time to time. Otherwise, you should be able to get most of your assets out before anyone realises what’s happening and then there’s not a lot they can do. Apart from killing you with a drone, of course.

I pretty much agree with you. That’s what those words are doing there after the second sentence. But even if it were only about Obama, that would – and will – be quite enough to put paid to the rule of law. It’s just a question of time before “domestic terrorists” who don’t like some corporate depredation or other – e.g. Occupy Wall Street, which was treated as a domestic terrorist organization by the feds – are put in the disposition matrix and don’t come out alive.

It’s just a question of time before “domestic terrorists” who don’t like some corporate depredation or other – e.g. Occupy Wall Street, which was treated as a domestic terrorist organization by the feds – are put in the disposition matrix and don’t come out alive.

That thought is not an abstraction for me. The Illinois law that arrested the #NoNATO protesters in pre-emptive raids was just as vague about what constituted an “imminent threat” but fortunately limited the consequences to a state court. There could have been nine dead people as a result of that raid.

It’s not just the CIA picking the targets. Axelrod was involved during the campaign looking for “politically rich” potentials during Obama’s re-election. All just a part of his re-election effort, very little to do with anything resembling national security

Republicans will not disparage drones or their makers so it will be up to the Obamabots to raise the issue in a friendly non confrontational manner and then they will move on to confirmation. Can’t see a big protest from either side of the Committee.

Like the “bezerkyness” of new House Leader Nancy Pelosi who took impeachment off the table from day one? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. No turning back since 9/11. This is the new norm.

You can’t save the people from tyranny if you don’t get re-elected so you can implement tyranny to keep us safe and secure. This is becoming more like Animal Farm than 1984 IMO. Some are more equal than others and you people just don’t understand.

Brennan is reputed to be a shoo-in. Any political opposition would be a hold on Hagel, who has more substantial Republican opposition. Reputed vote count for Hagel last report was 57. But 41 refusing to vote cloture could make it a bargaining chip. That would mean that a number of Democrats who agreed with Wyden (depending on how large the GOP opposition is) would cross over to block consideration. Whether it happens depends on (1) whether Wyden is willing to risk it, (2) how many GOP are committed against Hagel, (3) how many Dems Wyden could get to join him, and (4) how salient oversight power is for the old boys club.

Can you be splattered by a drone if you live in a country, (or state), where capital punishment is unlawful?

Short answer… Yes. Under the new white paper guidelines the long answer is… Yes.

To me this more about executive privilege than anything. It is the evolved false concept that the president is our leader, and in that capacity he can make decisions that affect all of us.

Obama is a natural for this role. When he was first running for president he used the first person singular tense almost exclusively. I’m going to do this, and I’m going to do that. His assumption of a dictatorial stance hasn’t changed. Oct 22, at a debate: OBAMA: “Well, my first job as commander in chief, Bob, is to keep the American people safe. And that’s what we’ve done over the last four years.” Obama is our commander-in-chief! Ten-hut! Who needs the Constitution when keeping us safe is Job One.

So Obama is “keeping us safe” with militarization, assassination, and domestic surveillance. And a lot of people favor that concept and its various applications, particularly the new millionaires that are made every day with fat sweetheart government contracts. Brennan is only an implementer.

Well said. In fascism paranoia runs deep. Security above all else.

It is called intimidation. Especially if the fascists have the guns and you don’t have anything to defend your life liberty and family, with?

Given human history, this grand experiment in human affairs seems to be on the ropes threatened from within by corporate fascists more concerned with protecting cash cows than the nation or the governed….

“Why, of course the people don’t want war . . . But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country..” —Hermann Goering, 1946

This morning I called Sens. Murphy & Blumenthal and asked them to indefinitely delay the Brennan confirmation vote… until there’s a real American debate on drones and assassinations…

And now back to reading the post!

http://www.zioncrimefactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/The-Gleiwitz-Incident-Nazi-Plot-or-Allied-Cover-Up-Steven-Books.pdf

The Presidential primary and campaign process selects for this attitude. It’s the way that Presidential qualities have been framed by the media since the days of “strong Presidents”.

Feinstein Won’t Allow Anyone to Testify Against Brennan on Targeted Killings

Given human history, this grand experiment in human affairs seems to be on the ropes threatened from within by corporate fascists more concerned with protecting cash cows than the nation or the governed….

237 years…..we had a good run.

“Splattered” may be inaccrate.

OTOH, the answer is still an enthusiastic “yes”. But, to clarify, one must be either a “terrorist”, a “suspected terrorist”, or “planning an imminent attack on the US here or abroad.. NOt like that includes just anybody./s

Although,the term “imminent” is a little bothersome.

That Hermann really breaks me up. Quite the kidder.

Fascism Americana….

Arthur Silber
Appreciate how easily the administration will have achieved its goal: move Petraeus out, move Brennan in — Brennan, who withdrew his name from consideration as C.I.A. Director four years ago because of “concerns” about his involvement in torture, and who today represents a program of unrestricted, worldwide murder.

Last May John Brennan was given an honorary degree by his Jesuit alma mater, Fordham University. A small protest, which included some students and longtime former CIA man Ray McGovern, was pretty much ignored amid the hoopla. Personally, I don’t regard Brennan as any kind of evil mastermind -he’s simply an very skillful bureaucrat working within policies designed by his superiors. My guess is that, with his years of loyalty to the CIA, Brennan will do his best to get his beloved agency out of the drone and torture business.