.

Brennan, …, said he found no evidence to support the claim that torture lead to the information used to plan the Osama Bin Laden raid.

Wow, where to start. This statement hinges on his ability/willingness to find such evidence. It is clearly different from,”None of the information used to find OBL was acquired using torture.” Why the weasel words? Further, limiting the issue to raid planning rather than finding OBL’s hide out is another weasel. Why?

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Well that specific issue was where the controversy was. As Levin notes former officials were claiming in multiple media outlets that the torture of KSM and others lead to the raid when the evidence suggests the information actually came from informants.

It’s important because if you are told that torture killed Bin Laden you are more likely to support it hence the Zero Dark Thirty issue.

Wait, a Hollywood action movie wasn’t filmed like a documentary?

But seriously, I would offer that this framing is itself part of the problem – we basically need a new phrase for kabuki theater. It doesn’t matter whether in any one situation torture and other forms of abuse provided valuable information. To the extent the debate centers around whether or not it helped, that distracts from the real issue, which is the blatant attack on the rule of law.

Remember, people advocating that torture works are not making substantive claims to better bring criminals to justice – that would be a good faith argument that happens to be incorrect. It could be answered with evidence about the ineffectiveness and counterproductive nature of torture and other forms of abuse.

Rather, they are doing something much more poisonous, not at all in good faith public service or exchange of dialogue. They are systematically creating the environment for undermining the Constitution. Every question asked about this is in a time limited format like the Senate is a question not asked about enforcing laws or the consequences of blowback or the dehumanization of abuse.

I suppoose we should just keep telling ourselves, “It’s only a movie. It’s only a movie.”

ZDT is a movie I won’t bother to watch. Even in the commercials, it looks unrealistic as the lasers from rifles shine all over OBL’s house and into windows. I don’t think the SEALs would tip off their presence that way.

After The Hurt Locker won Best Picture, I rented it on DVD and, honestly, I thought it was one of the most over-rated movies I had ever seen. Rather than being “realistic” as touted by some, it was ridden with movie cliches.

Boal and Bigelow are a couple of hacks pushing government propaganda–again.

“Mark Boal, the screenwriter for Zero Dark Thirty said torture was clearly part of finding Osama Bin Laden and leaving that out of the film would be whitewashing history.”

Perhaps he and Michael Moore could form a support group. Stop Questioning Us!

That’s as definitive a denial as you are ever going to get. You will never hear an “absolutely no.” He is making the case that he is reporting on the evidence and not pushing an agenda.

Torture was indeed “clearly part of finding Osama bin Laden.” Like many other ‘parts’, it didn’t help find Osama bin Laden.

Is it too late to point out that ‘finding [the husk of] Osama bin Laden’ was a pointless exercise?

The film shows that the trail went cold when a courier they were looking for turned up dead. It was revived again by info from an analyst found in materials ignored from 2002. So take ur pick. Could be said they would not have gotten him without that info from the analyst. Or, of you like torture helped find him. Turns out the guy they wanted was a brother of the dead guy. So close but no cigar.

Tuffsnotenuff wrote a diary here at FDL on Feb 3. Have a look. He suggests we lost seven years chasing false leads.

Under questioning by Senator Carl Levin (D-Michigan) Brennan, a senior national security official in both the Bush and Obama administrations, said he found no evidence to support the claim that torture lead to the information used to plan the Osama Bin Laden raid.

This means absolutely nothing, think about it. . .
1) What if Brennan doesn’t consider water boarding to be torture.
2) “Information used to plan the Osama Bin Laden raid” here he’s referring to what type of mission, how many troops to use, do we capture or kill him?
etc . . .

If you ask him the question:
Did any type of enhanced interrogation technics gain any information that led to the whereabouts and / or killing of Osama Bin Laden? He’d have to say Yes.

Brennan’s answer to Sen. Levin was just a way to give cover to the Democrats on the committee to vote for his confirmation.

If the film is accurate then torture can be said not to have had anything at all to do with finding Bin Laden. The trail went dead cold. It only was resurrected when the analyst found the file from 2002. From then on it was a matter of the ole’ snoop dog technique with some old fashioned bribery thrown in.

IN fact you can go further. Through all the torture the dungeon masters accumulated almost nothing. You would think they would build up a data base of leads and profiles, but…… That almost makes sense. These dungeon masters were just trying to come up with the latest tip. Oh look what Abu said!!! Not very good detectives if it took them nine years or so to find Bin Laden, but they could burn the eye out of a knat.

But it’s only a film. Gotta wait for the book.

Boal and Bigelow are a couple of hacks pushing government propaganda–again.

Yes, Leni Riefenstahl would be so proud. What is it with women and government propoganda?

Is it too late to point out that ‘finding [the husk of] Osama bin Laden’ was a pointless exercise?

Why yes. But the US Government’s existence depends entirely on pointless exercises. OSB used to work for the CIA, who knows when he was “bumped off” or even “if he was.” Hey, but it makes a great, Hollywood blockbuster!!

Remember the Peace Prize winner said that he couldn’t release the photos because they were too gruesome for our sensitivities (clutching my pearls and reaching for the smelling salts).

Apparently executing someone is not gruesome, just pictures of the execution are. What a sad, sad country we live in.

What is it with women and government propoganda?

That they’re good at it?

I really don’t see how it’s a gender issue since so many men have been and are involved in pushing propaganda, even in all the rah-rah, pro-war movies like The Green Berets, though Bigelow and Riefenstahl are more talented filmmakers than whoever made that drek.

Here is a list and summaries of recently made pro-war movies. The Hurt Locker is among them.
http://markhumphrys.com/cinema.pro.reviews.html

Abdul is correct. Even putting aside the limitation to evidence Brennan “found,” the statement is bizarrely worded.

Brennan, …, said he found no evidence to support the claim that torture lead to the information used to plan the Osama Bin Laden raid.

He never says anything about our finding Bin Laden. He confines his statement to the information used to plan the raid. I’m guessing we didn’t plan the raid until after we knew exactly where he was, down to the specific building.

What the fuck?

Sorry, DSWright, but your headline greatly overstates what Brennan said, at least insofar as you describe what he said.

I am not taking sides on the accuracy of the film. I am merely comparing your headline with what you say Brennan said.

A prof of a movie course I took said that Hitler thought he only had to fight FDR. Had he known he would have to fight Jack Warner, he would have surrendered immediately.