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While the United States government obsesses over the possibility that Iran might be pursuing nuclear weapons, North Korea has conducted its third nuclear weapons test.
North Korea conducted its third nuclear test on Tuesday in defiance of existing U.N. resolutions, drawing condemnation from around the world, including from its only major ally, China, which summoned the North Korean ambassador to protest.
The reclusive North said the test was an act of self-defense against “U.S. hostility” and threatened further, stronger steps if necessary.
It said the test had “greater explosive force” than the 2006 and 2009 tests. Its KCNA news agency said it had used a “miniaturized” and lighter nuclear device, indicating that it had again used plutonium which is more suitable for use as a missile warhead.
The miniaturized nature of the nuclear weapon tested is raising concerns that North Korea may be close to the ability to put a nuclear device on a missile. North Korea has already developed an early stage ICBM which, if loaded with a nuclear warhead, could cause mass destruction in East Asia and beyond. North Korea has made a point of saying its missiles can reach the United States. The United States and North Korea are still technically at war the lack of armed conflict is a result of a cease fire agreement reached in 1954 both parties could resume armed conflict at any time.
And yet, the American government and media hyper-focus on Iran a country – unlike North Korea – which is not at war with the United States, has never tested a nuclear weapon, nor openly stated its hostile intentions for the use of such weapons against the United States. What happened to protecting the homeland? This is a total breakdown of the national security apparatus which – despite all the tax money it has extorted – is back to 9/11 style incompetence once again.
Perhaps it’s time to stop focusing on illusory threats like Al-Qaeda in North Africa and hyped threats like Iran and instead deal with actual threats like a nuclear armed North Korea threatening to attack America.
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Why is DPRK a threat?
What precisely, Dan, do you suggest that a rational and reasonable response to North Korea might be?
I assume that you advocate a rational and reasonable response.
Do you doubt, for even an instance that less than rational and reasonable “suggestions” will be, rather immediately, forthcoming from the political class, which includes the media, in the United States of America?
Do you imagine that calls for “preemptive action” will not, this very day, be heard?
That “we” will be urged to “resume” the “armed conflict”, now that the uneasy “cease fire agreement” has been, we shall be assured, “violated”?
I quite agree that Iran poses no clear threat to this nation, and also that the vast majority of citizens in this nation have NO idea of our “history” with Iran, BEGINNING with the overthrow of democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mossaddegh, by the US under the “TPAJAX Project” and the UK under its “Operation Boot”, thereby transforming the Shah ” … from a constitutional monarch into an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold onto power until his own overthrow in 1979″.
It would seem a most hypocritical undertaking to suggest, even as “we” seek to, as much as we are able, come to honest grips with our own use of terrorist tactics such as torture and, much in the news, if not in the conscience, of late … the use of drones to assassinate any whom our Executive deems worthy of death, including, it appears, despite official denial, of innocent victims … and even the targeting of those who respond to the first attack when trying to help those wounded in that first attack.
Where, precisely, is to be found “OUR” moral high-ground, where are the foundational principles upon which “we” may stake claims of “authority” or even innocence?
I well realize these concerns of mine will be scoffed at, be derided as inconsequent and even frivolous or silly, yet I do not consider them so, I think them most necessary when fear, patriotism, and knee-jerk tribal “loyalty” is about to be invoked, not by you, Dan, certainly, but by those who would manipulate perception, “belief” and “opinion”.
We, as a civil society, as a nation, are, already on some very slippery slopes and it would not require “much” for all of our sanity and civility, as well as our fundamental rights and such principles as may yet remain scared to us, to slip-slide … away.
DW
Korea has no oil or gas.
My point is mostly, if you are going to use public resources to focus on national threats… how about paying attention to people with the means/stated objectives instead of projecting those fears onto others such as Iran.
If Iran is even close to a threat how can North Korea not be? It would, of course, be fair to argue neither are. But contrasted against each other, it’s no contest.
I think this is a precarious situation. We cannot do much but if the North Koreans use a Nuke against, we have more than enough stock piles to wipe them off the face of the earth. This is not a good resolution though.
As someone who works for DHS I would suggest that you have misplaced the blame. This failure lies at the feet of the Dept of State and the Dept of Defense. They are the ones who can stop this or if not stop atleast have a role to play in this situation. As reported this nuculear explosion happened in North Korea and NOT in the US.
Why?
Well there’s that too.
W’s axis of evil. North Korea, Iran and Iraq.
At that time and now, from a military point of view which country was the most dangerous?
Soon to be Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel considered this in his 2008 book:
DPRK is on the list bc it’s a way the U.S. can aggress against China without doing it directly.
Its precarious or uncertain because we dont know what the North Koreans will actually do with their new weapons. They have to know they are out gunned in the nuke department by the US and that they dont have a navy to invade the US. They also have to know that the idea of freedom so cherished by the South Koreans will be a great addition to the resolve of the people in the South. Seaol knows it has alot to lose and will fight very hard to keep it, of course with our help. Either way the North Koreans are on an Island and they are only inviting destruction to their country if they start anything.
Its also precarious because noone in the US actually wants the Korean war to start up again.
Shows you how little Hagel knows. DPRK’s nuke program is defensive only. If they didn’t have it they would have been overrun by now.
That is malarky.
If there’s anything the DPRK isn’,, it’s not suicidal. DPRK is so poor they can’t attack anyone.
U.S. destruction of N. Korea during the Korean war was so thorough, i.e. every structure in the entire country was flattened, that they had to live underground for a long time afterwards. Any country that could survive that thorough destruction, would not risk it again by attacking anyone.
If it is fair to argue that neither Iran nor North Korea pose actual threats, then would that not be the “place” to begin discussion?
Neither you nor I consider Iran to be a meaningful threat, and apparently, neither of us consider North Korea to be a meaningful threat, either.
The greater threat to the US, in my opinion, is internal, is “homeland”-grown … and when I see Dick Cheney saying that Obama’s drone “program” is “A good policy”, then I consider that other rational observers, other reasonable human beings, might think so too, and that such understanding should not be subordinated to the “talking points” of those centrally involved in the ongoing threat to reason, to the Rule of Law, and to the survival of civil society.
I understand what it is that you intend, yet does not the success that you seek imply more than simply moving inculcated hysteria from one unworthy object to another? Does it not require shifting the conversation to the underlying morality, or lack of same, of “public” (and privately profitable) policy … to a discussion of the point and purpose of creating “enemies” and the resultant loss of important attention elsewhere?
Shiny objects or truly imminent threats to the well-being of human beings?
Why continue to play their game?
Why not seek to bring the conversation to recognition of the true dimension of our common plight, those of us who are not among the insulated elite?
Why engage fallacious contrast, why not engage the courage of imagination to see beyond the current curtains of enforced ignorance?
Surely, the majority of those who comment on your posts are not so ill-informed or misled as to fail to be able to understand the greater depth we all must begin, at some point or time, if we are to survive or even thrive, bring to the basic issues of war and peace of tyranny and justice?
I offer these thoughts, Dan, not as criticism, but as encouragement.
We must engage beyond the limits of the “acceptable” or the “permitted”, of the comfort zones of hubris and notions of exceptionalism, we must examine the causes and roles, in so call civilized society, of those things, the deceits, the “racket”, the manipulation, and the moral turpitude which seems to define our times. Not the “morality” of “superior” religious or nationalistic claptrap, but the morality of common humanity, of reason, and of justice.
DW
“Where, precisely, is to be found “OUR” moral high-ground, where are the foundational principles upon which “we” may stake claims of “authority” or even innocence?”
I’m not scoffing. Well said.
How convenient that NK decides to act up when substantial cuts to defense are on the table.
If they did not exist we would have to invent them.
Most dangerous ? But to who ?
How you gonna say ,Thats malarky, and then basically restate what I said as your arguement. It seems that we are in agreement that North Korea is physically and economically isolated and that they can do little more than fire some guns in the air.
To be fair this is a rational assesment of the situation, however the guy calling the shots over there is a spoiled rich kid who was never told no and never had to struggle or work for anything. He might not hold the same view that you and I agree on.
Great observation.
That’s the malarky part.
It is not precarious or uncertain.
Insofar as one can know anything about another’s intentions, DPRK’s are about as clear as it ever gets.
“Perhaps it’s time to stop focusing on illusory threats like Al-Qaeda in North Africa and hyped threats like Iran and instead deal with actual threats like a nuclear armed North Korea threatening to attack America.”
Oh, no, no, no, no, no to that final clause! Not with the warmakers we currently have in office!
How about we focus on getting our own house in order? Would that be too much to ask? I can just see the paragraphs hastily being shoved into the next mighty speech – shudder – and they are not going to be about our four freedoms. A very much thank you to PBS for reminding us of those last night – I love you Antique Roadshow guys, I really do. That was super.
I heard for close to 50 years that those dirty rotten commies in the USSR were going to use nukes on us. I remember the hysteria when I was a kid, ducking and rolling under my school desk, seeing people build fallout shelters, the whole 9 yards.
Ya know what?, They weren’t crazy enough to launch a first strike and neither is the DPRK, or Iran. In fact I would consider Iran crazy if they didn’t want a nuke. After all we invaded a neighboring country very recently, on a bunch of bogus “intelligence”
Just more hysteria to funnel tax dollars to the defense industry. Will we ever learn?
First one is Freedom from FEAR, guys!
since WWII, the militarized u.s. has not invaded or openly waged war on any country that could effectively shoot back; i doubt that the u.s. will openly attack the only country to successfully fight it to a recognized draw in the ’50s.
as far as N. Korea’s “paranoid” stance goes, it isn’t paranoia when they really out to destroy you. The u.s. has broken agreements with N. Korea –most recent one i recall was with clinton admin that was repudiated by the cheney admin– so i doubt that N. Korea will do any negotiating with u.s. or it’s agent, the UN.
Meantime, China continues to chortle softly as the u.s. continues to destroy itself militarizing the world while China continues to build mutually beneficial trade agreements that will last long after the u.s. retreats to an imploded economy.
There’s not likely any country on the face of the earth nuts enough to attack the US with nukes, but if there were, I would put my money on it being North Korea before any other. Most certainly not Iran, but then again, attacking the US isn’t the reason the USG is concerned about Iran’s nukes.
Good comment.
I would quibble with the statement that U.S. has not waged war against any country that could fight back: Vietnam. Of course, the U.S. didn’t know that at the time, heh.
Listening to Yale prof, just at the point where he talked about VN. I think it was Ho Chi Min who said: You kill dozens of us, we’ll kill one of you & we will wear you out. Forgot the link to the Yale lecture: http://oyc.yale.edu/history/hist-276/lecture-21
I also remember that it was Clinton admin itself that dragged its heels on its own agreement and W just made it official. The Aldim trip was in 1994, agreement came shortly afterwards, so Billy had 6 years to make good on it & didn’t.
Iran doesn’t have nukes.
True, I should’ve said “potential nukes”.
But really, even if Iran didn’t have “potential nukes” I think the USG would invent them. I say this because I’m not even convinced they really are pursuing weapons.
Iran, though fanatical, doesn’t seem to me to be crazy, like, oh, say Saddam Hussein or whatever the hell the name of that old guy that just died who led North Korea.
No, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if Iran didn’t even have a real program in place. Although, it also wouldn’t be earth shattering to me if they did, since, I could certainly understand why.
Grand Ayatollah pooh bah has issued 2-3 fatwas against nuke bomb as being unIslamic.
I know, I know, you can’t take anything pooh bahs say as true. It’s usually the opposite. But when you couple that religious law pronouncement, with the fact that Iran hasn’t attacked any other country for decades (or is it centuries, I forget), and that it is one of the oldest surviving cultures in the world (since 700 +/- as Islamic, and from 2800BCE before that, and that, despite Shia being persecuted by Sunnis forever, they have maintained some semblance of balance, I think Iran has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Exactly.
North Korea shows that the best way to get superpowers and their buddies off your back is to get nukes ASAP.
Indeed.
Was this their first successful launch without a donkey involved?
Has anyone in our military or political class threatened military action over this? If they do, we should lock them up.
I don’t necesaarily “blame” North Korea. Were I them, I’d probably be doing the same thing, being likewise paranoid of a US or multi-national invasion.
OTOH, we could just take the little shit out and close down their program all by air, no invasion needed. I’m prettu sure that China, S Korea, Japan and most of their neighbors would support us. It amazes me that we and our allies can;t make it clear to N Korea and Iran that this could easily result in their country being annihalated.
As usual you’re right. BUt, OTOH, I don’t thing Mahmoud is beinbg honest with the Grand Pooh Bah. I think he may be developign his nukes in secret.
I can only wish it were so easy and risk free. I think it is not.
Can’t these leaders look at a map and see how disadantaged they are???
I agree with that. They are looking to make a bomb. But now what? That situation is volatile.
I don’t think they want a war, North Korea especially. But they do act nuts at times and that is a danger.
I think Japan is verry concerned over this. And between you and me, there are two contries I wouldn’t want to screw with, Israel anda Japan.
I agree. they are just paranoid. But paranoid in a a BIG way.
One problem with this situation are people like Cheney or Bolton and the like who get their jollies at waving the flag. Heaven help us if they get support from other quarters.
Oh, for a minute there I thought you were talking about all the US Presidents. My bad. I forgot, our spoiled rich kids can do no wrong.
There is no doubt this is a dangerous situation but if cool heads prevail it does not need to escalate.
Speaking of “acting nuts”, bluedot12, have you seen this recent piece by Tom Engelhardt?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-engelhardt/saudi-arabia-drone-base_b_2669283.html
As juliania suggests, @21, we’d best put our own house in much better order before going “off” … any deep “ends” …
One might ponder, just by way of mental exercise, whom it is that Iran and North Korea most fear … and then examine what their reasons, and experience, might be … that these nations might fear, rationally and reasonably, the intentions and behavior of a certain other nation.
Engelhardt’s piece is very much well worth a quick read, and even a wee thought or two … or even, three …
DW
Bush’s Axis of Evil – Iraq, Iran, N Korea. Iraq had no nukes – invaded and destroy. North Korea gain nukes – given aid. Iran… well the lesson is pretty clear isn’t it?
I agree that the indiscriminate use of drones is a destabilizing action. And the multiple bases around the planet tends to make us appear as conquerors. We very much need to dial it down. Public opinion is turning against them that’s a good thing.
Is there anything you know about the structure of Iranian government, how power is distributed, how laws are passed, how funds are allocated, who controls the military, how foreign policy is established, how Ahmadinjad’s religion and that of his conservative base would influence their attitude toward nuclear weapons or their response to a fatwa, on which to base your thinking that Ahmadinejad would either want to or be able to develop weapons “in secret”?
Is there any other country,apart from Iran,that is continually threatened by our Govt and it’s allies more than NKorea…
Just a few short weeks ago our Govt was conducting joint military exercises along with SKorea military.
Any nation,thinking clearly will seek to best defend it’s itself from aggressive foreign forces.
Lets here from the major players if “all options are on the table” with regard to NKorea.
Shows what an abysmal failure our foreign policy as been.Threatening Nations with military force & supportive of dictators that’s been our foreign policy for ages.
How long before NKorea puts drone into actions folks ?
Maybe that will be the one saving grace from this maniacal policy of killing those who disagree with you by remote detonation.
“…appear as conquerors.”
Our history would be hard-pressed to refute the actual truth of that, bluedot. From beginning to endless war … we have felt entitled to do much as we pleased. I suggest that numerous nations and many millions of human beings would attest to that reality.
Call it karma, have we not, assiduously and consistently, brought it onto ourselves?
Or are we to claim only the best of intentions and having been royally misunderstood?
I hope that you are correct about public opinion, as a certain wisdom hereabouts has made clear his contention that “most people” have far more “important things to think about” than drone assiassinations or torture.
It would do “us” good to think through rather carefully what is done, too often secretly, and always in the most bipartisan of ways, in our name, yours and mine …
Rather than rattling sabers, perhaps we ought to rattle our own neurons?
Think first.
Think again.
Think yet even once more.
And stand against that most false of “arguments” … “You are either with us or against us …”, which you will recall was the clarion call of Bush-Cheney when they lied us into war … once … before … even as we were lied into the “war” in Vietnam … with “domino” theories and non-existent “incidents”.
Rather that allowing the government of this nation to continue with it belligerence, we, perhaps, ought to insist, and continue to insist, that we cannot afford any further destruction of life or of reason, of truth, of justice or the Rule of Law, that the “war racket” might become perpetual and a continuing means of bleeding the people, of the common wealth and “treasure” of the nation into the coffers of the elite?
DW
Yeah our rich kids start wars in iraq and who-knows-where-else, I will grant you that. But we have been smart enough not to get into a fight with a country that has as many or more nukes than us, (and yes i know that no other country has more nukes than us).
An autocrat who is not ‘our’ autocrat. ‘We’ can not have that, can ‘we’?
on a related subject, North Korea is an abysmal country, that has periodic massive starvation, ongoing food insecurity, slave labour, summary executions, forced marriages, no human rights of any kind, a three generation inherited dictatorship, a population that has been subjected to brainwashing and intimidation, and so on.
Incidentally as I understand it, two of the countries that have provided much of the food eaten in North Korea, are the USA, and South Korea.
The sooner that dictatorial outfit is thrown out, the better.